pitchers or robots?

Like that is going to make a difference. The pitcher still has to make an excellent pitch on his part. If a coach believes he has that much control in a pitch thrown, he would be better off believing he can make the decision on when to get a hit. Now that would be a heckuva coach!

Oh..but you are so right, Caroliner

 

Good points

This is a good thread started and spoken on by some good baseball people. In my experience there are definitely two sides to this story. Both of them have been stated and both of them have cases.

Here is what we do...

I spend a lot of time on scouting reports. I have my own charts from the previous years. I get info from other coaches. I come out and watch Batting Practice every game and make notes. I know my pitchers better than anyone does. I feel that I can read hitters better than they can. I communicate with my catcher every inning. (What we are getting from the umpire, how the pitcher's stuff is, and where we are consistently missing location wise). My catcher has to be the most honest person on the field.

I call every pitch. But, the pitcher has the shakeoff on every pitch. This allows the pitcher to see what I want first. He can shakeoff, but has to explain to me why he did in the next inning.

Positive - I got what I want almost all of the time. The pitcher does know what is working, and he can make his assesment of the game.

Negative - The pace of the game does slow down a bit. But, small price to pay to get what we want.

This has worked for me a great deal.

 

i pitched by feel as much as anything. scouing reports meant little to me as a high school pitcher because my stuff was usually just too good for hs hitters anyway. what i wanted though wa to throw the pitch i wanted to throw when i wanted to throw it. sometimes the coach may say "you should have challenged that hitter with a fast ball when you were behind in the count or maye you should have give him the curveball because we had a base open and a weaker hitter up next" to me the coach saying he's being held responsible for wins and losses puts even more of that on himself by calling the pitches. it means he is now responsible for every pitch thrown good or bad.
when i started this thread i meant boys ae just not learning to pitch anymore. there's more to it than just throwing the ball. the pitcher is the boss on the field and no one can do anythinguntil he throws the ball so everything is in his hands. a good pittcher must do many things that most people don't notice but are part of the game betwween pitcher and hitter. they cannot know this if they simply get on the rubber and following orders. imo major league pitching is down from 10 or 15 years ago and i think this is one reason.

 

Thomasmagnum - You made some good points and I defiantly agree with you on a lot fo your key points. With coaching, they want to have control of the game and feel the need to do it all. Some coaches can do this and some just dont understand whats going on at all. I think kids are afraid to shake off because if they do the coach will get mad at them and embarass them or put another kid in for them. We all have seen those coaches before so we know their out there. But kids feel they have to do what the coach says or their goes their playing time. It sucks for the kid because they are stuck between a rock and hard place because they have to throw the pitch the coach wants or else. I think this is a key problem for most kids is what will their coach do or say if they were to shake them off.

If a coach has a scouting report on certain players and knows they struggle with certain pitches then I dont mind them calling signs. But if a catcher has a slightest clue of how to call a game then I think the coach should give him a try and see what happens. If it is obvious a catcher cant call a game, then the coach should take over.

 

We had a young catcher this HS season (a soph) who had never caught a varsity game... my pitching coach called pitches this season. As the season passed, he was allowed to call pitches in spots and did well. Next year will probably be a different story,as he will be an experienced catcher and will mostlikely call most of the pitches. I would rather my catcher call the game, because it forces him to learn more and be a more active player. He becomes more cerebral as a player. It helps him develop leadership skills, and he becomes a coach on the field. He also knows what was working in the pen and in many cases, it is easier to communicate adjustments to the pitcher through him, especially if he is experienced and a good player. As far as developing as a player, a catcher making the calls aids in this development. To get there you must develop trust and with patience and teaching this can and does happen.

This has been my experience and i feel like we have been fortunate over the years to have decent catchers in our program.

 

I'm glad Andro made his post so I won't feel like the Lone Ranger. If winning is the objective, why would you trust a catcher to call the pitches? If that's a good idea, then why not let baserunners steal at will? Why put restraints on batters? Heck, why even have basecoaches?

In a day when scouting reports are getting more & more sophisticated, I can't see the wisdom of letting a 16 year old decide for his team what's best when the game's on the line.

 

It depends on your relationship with your players to an extent, and how you as a coach develop players. have you ever seen a coach call the wrong pitch? Granted, we are more of an expert of what we want done or we wouldnt be here, but each have our own philosophy. I believe in the long run it is better for our players and team to learn the game and have some flexibility based on their own skills.

For Example:
Yes, I have given the green light to players to steal on their own, but we have discussed when and where, etc...
My players are allowed to take extra bases and be aggressive when they show mw they are capable.
I have given a green light on a 3-0 count to players.

The same goes for catchers, if he is ready to handle the situation, then give him the flexibility to use his own judgement, just like in the above situations. On the showcase team I coach, we do not have a first base coach on a regular basis, this allows players to make their own baserunning judgements and learn to run the bases.

What can I do to teach them the game??? For me, when players have more flexibility within the confines of fundamental and solid system play, they have more ownership and it creates a better TEAM.... the wins take care of themselves.

 

Oh Really?

Hey Thomasmagnum,

First of all, don't get out of sorts with my post. I'm just goofin' like Catchers and Pitchers often do to each other...........

BUT..... If the Pitcher is the "boss" then why are 14 of the current 30 MLB Managers former Catchers? Bud Black is the only former Pitcher managing a MLB team!

The other 15 Managers are divided among the other position players. Some Middle Infielders and a few 3B. Only a handful of OF. Here is the list of Catchers. Yes, Torre was a Catcher first. I'll bet many of you didn't know Leyland was a Catcher?

Cleveland Indians - Eric Wedge
Detroit Tigers - Jim Leyland
Los Angeles Angels - Mike Scioscia
New York Yankees - Joe Torre
Oakland Athletics - Bob Geren
Seattle Mariners - John McLaren
Tampa Bay Devil Rays - Joe Maddon
Toronto Blue Jays - John Gibbons
Arizona Diamondbacks - Bob Melvin
Florida Marlins - Fredi Gonzalez
Los Angeles Dodgers - Grady Little
Milwaukee Brewers - Ned Yost
San Francisco Giants - Bruce Bochy
Baltimore Orioles - Dave Trembley

 

Coach Evans, I have a son who is a coach-on-the-field understanding of the game. He studies pitchers & opposing batters like it's a science project. But he needs a coach to decide when to bunt, when to take a pitch, when to steal, etc.

I respect your approach, but I'm convinced that in the long run less mistakes will be made & more games won if a savy coach makes most (if not all) the calls (including pitches/location). I think that takes the pressure off the player too.

Last thought: I used to umpire at a high level. One of my few redeeming virtues was that every game I reminded myself that I was an accessory to the game. I always remembered: afterwards I'll get in my car, drive home, eat supper & watch SportsCenter. But the Coach who loses will be puking his guts out in misery. Point: if his job is in the balance, his best chance to win is to control the action as much as possible (which means control the kids). Just my humble opinion.

 

Man, I've finally found a topic that UK and I totally disagree on. UK, I disagree with the point you are making in treating offense (baserunning, bunting etc.) and defense (in this case calling pitches) equally. You have to teach kids to think on defense. Otherwise, when the ball was hit to them, they'd look in the dugout to find out what to do with it. To me offense is a little more strategic and defense is a little more reactionary.

Here is what I think (and remember I'm a former catcher here). I took it as an insult when my college coach wanted to call pitches for me. He had never pitched or caught a day in his life. I felt like I knew the game well enough for me and my pitcher to figure it out. After a while, he agreed with me and let me call my own game. But here is the point where you have to know your players (and especially your catchers). The guy I platooned with in college was not capable of calling his own game. He would put a one down, if the pitcher shook that off, then on to the two and etc, etc. He did that on every pitch. All catching was to him was a chance to throw out a baserunner and something to kill time until he got to hit again. I've also coached catchers that were on both ends of this spectrum. Some guys I would never call a game for, and others I wouldn't let call a pitch if you held a gun to my head.

UK, I guarantee you that if your son were a catcher he would fight tooth and nail to call his own game. And knowing him like I do, he'd deserve to.