Earned/Unearned Run?

If there are two outs, and runners on base by hits. Pop up to the catcher, who misses the ball because it tapers away from him. Are the runs earned if they score off a hit?

 

If he dropped the ball---error. If he missed it because it tailed away--foul ball. That can be a tough play and the fact that you mentioned it was tapering rules out "normal effort."

 

No error assigned on the play-runners did not advance. Next kid got a hit and drove them in. Do you believe the runs were earned?

 

As a scorekeeper, if there was no error, then yes they are earned. Tough call and drives a pitcher nuts.

 

Earned/unearned Runs?

I saw the play- the foul tip was 2 miles high- and if you were under the ball and did not move-it hit 10 feet away from you. A tough catch needless to say. Now the kid catching is a solid player-should he caught it- IDK-very tough-but You cant give him an error (IMO)-runners didnt advance, nor did he drop the ball. The next kid drove in runs on a hit-so I believe the runs are earned. I talked to another guy who believed they were unearned b/c he thinks the kid should have caught the ball. Just like a Double Play- cant assume- Right?

its fun to debate this stuff, as we all have different opinions-makes you think.

 

Yep, I'll wait until Mincmi weighs in. He's a professional scorekeeper.

 

1 – Scoring an error can be subjective but the standard that should be applied is: should the play be made with “ordinary effort”. If you can answer yes to the question and the play was not made, then it is an error.
In the example you give, it seems to me that the ball should be caught with ordinary effort. The ball was hit high enough to be located and positioned under. Ordinary effort for a catcher requires that they catch balls that tail because almost all pop-ups at the plate are going to tail because of the spin. Regardless, if the catcher in this example, touches that ball or not, it is still and error. It is irrelative that the runners did not move up. The result of the play (missed catch) prolonged the time at bat. Even if the hitter strikes out on the next pitch, it is still an error.
2 – You mentioned that the player was a good player and should make the catch. When scoring, the ability of the player should not be considered, only if the play should be made with ordinary effort. You cannot charge an error to a player because his ability is less. Example: ball hit towards short: Player A fields it cleanly and throws the runner out first. Player B fields it cleanly and throws to first but the runner beats the throw because his arm is not as strong.
3 – Are the runs earned: Unearned runs are runs that scored that would not have if an error or pass ball did not occur. (PBs are not errors but can lead to unearned runs – also the majority of balls that get by the catcher are WP) In the example you give, (two outs) any runs scored after the pop up did not result in an out are unearned. If there are less than two outs you need to look at what happened in the following plate appearances. Just because there is an error does not necessary mean runs are unearned. Example: Runner steals second and then advances to third on an error by the catcher’s wild throw and then scores on batter’s HR. The runner would have scored on HR so error would not figure into scoring.

 

Here is some more info:

10.12 Errors
An error is a statistic charged against a fielder whose action has assisted the team on offense, as set forth in this Rule 10.12.
(a) The official scorer shall charge an error against any fielder:
(1) whose misplay (fumble, muff or wild throw) prolongs the time at bat of a batter, prolongs the presence on the bases of a runner or permits a runner to advance one or more bases, unless, in the judgment of the official scorer, such fielder deliberately permits a foul fly to fall safe with a runner on third base before two are out in order that the runner on third shall not score after the catch;
Rule 10.12(a)(1) Comment: Slow handling of the ball that does not involve mechanical misplay shall not be construed as an error. For example, the official scorer shall not charge a fielder with an error if such fielder fields a ground ball cleanly but does not throw to first base in time to retire the batter. It is not necessary that the fielder touch the ball to be charged with an error. If a ground ball goes through a fielder's legs or a fly ball falls untouched and, in the scorer's judgment, the fielder could have handled the ball with ordinary effort, the official scorer shall charge such fielder with an error. For example, the official scorer shall charge an infielder with an error when a ground ball passes to either side of such infielder if, in the official scorer’s judgment, a fielder at that position making ordinary effort would have fielded such ground ball and retired a runner. The official scorer shall charge an outfielder with an error if such outfielder allows a fly ball to drop to the ground if, in the official scorer’s judgment, an outfielder at that position making ordinary effort would have caught such fly ball. If a throw is low, wide or high, or strikes the ground, and a runner reaches base who otherwise would have been put out by such throw, the official scorer shall charge the player making the throw with an error.
The official scorer shall not score mental mistakes or misjudgments as errors unless a specific rule prescribes otherwise. A fielder’s mental mistake that leads to a physical misplay—such as throwing the ball into the stands or rolling the ball to the pitcher’s mound, mistakenly believing there to be three outs, and thereby allowing a runner or runners to advance—shall not be considered a mental mistake for purposes of this rule and the official scorer shall charge a fielder committing such a mistake with an error. The official scorer shall not charge an error if the pitcher fails to cover first base on a play, thereby allowing a batter-runner to reach first base safely. The official scorer shall not charge an error to a fielder who incorrectly throws to the wrong base on a play.
The official scorer shall charge an error to a fielder who causes another fielder to misplay a ball—for example, by knocking the ball out of the other fielder’s glove. On such a play, when the official scorer charges an error to the interfering fielder, the official scorer shall not charge an error to the fielder with whom the other fielder interfered.
(2) when such fielder muffs a foul fly to prolong the time at bat of a batter, whether the batter subsequently reaches first base or is put out;
(3) when such fielder catches a thrown ball or a ground ball in time to put out the batter-runner and fails to tag first base or the batter-runner;
(4) when such fielder catches a thrown ball or a ground ball in time to put out any runner on a force play and fails to tag the base or the runner;
(5) whose wild throw permits a runner to reach a base safely, when in the scorer's judgment a good throw would have put out the runner, unless such wild throw is made attempting to prevent a stolen base;
(6) whose wild throw in attempting to prevent a runner's advance permits that runner or any other runner to advance one or more bases beyond the base such runner would have reached had the throw not been wild;
(7) whose throw takes an unnatural bounce, touches a base or the pitcher's plate, or touches a runner, a fielder or an umpire, thereby permitting any runner to advance; or
Rule 10.12(a)(7) Comment: The official scorer shall apply this rule even when it appears to be an injustice to a fielder whose throw was accurate. For example, the official scorer shall charge an error to an outfielder whose accurate throw to second base hits the base and caroms back into the outfield, thereby permitting a runner or runners to advance, because every base advanced by a runner must be accounted for.
(8) whose failure to stop, or try to stop, an accurately thrown ball permits a runner to advance, so long as there was occasion for the throw. If such throw was made to second base, the official scorer shall determine whether it was the duty of the second baseman or the shortstop to stop the ball and shall charge an error to the negligent fielder.
Rule 10.12(a)(8) Comment: If, in the official scorer's judgment, there was no occasion for the throw, the official scorer shall charge an error to the fielder who threw the ball.
(b) The official scorer shall charge only one error on any wild throw, regardless of the number of bases advanced by one or more runners.
(c) When an umpire awards the batter or any runner or runners one or more bases because of interference or obstruction, the official scorer shall charge the fielder who committed the interference or obstruction with one error, no matter how many bases the batter, or runner or runners, may advance.
Rule 10.12(c) Comment: The official scorer shall not charge an error if obstruction does not change the play, in the opinion of the scorer.
(d) The official scorer shall not charge an error against:
(1) the catcher when the catcher, after receiving the pitch, makes a wild throw attempting to prevent a stolen base, unless the wild throw permits the stealing runner to advance one or more extra bases or permits any other runner to advance one or more bases;
(2) any fielder who makes a wild throw if in the scorer's judgment the runner would not have been put out with ordinary effort by a good throw, unless such wild throw permits any runner to advance beyond the base he would have reached had the throw not been wild;
(3) any fielder who makes a wild throw in attempting to complete a double play or triple play, unless such wild throw enables any runner to advance beyond the base such runner would have reached had the throw not been wild;

 

Rule 10.12(d) Comment: When a fielder muffs a thrown ball that, if held, would have completed a double play or triple play, the official scorer shall charge an error to the fielder who drops the ball and credit an assist to the fielder who made the throw.
(4) any fielder when, after fumbling a ground ball or dropping a batted ball that is in flight or a thrown ball, the fielder recovers the ball in time to force out a runner at any base; or
(5) any fielder when a wild pitch or passed ball is scored.
(e) The official scorer shall not charge an error when the batter is awarded first base on four called balls, when the batter is awarded first base when touched by a pitched ball, or when the batter reaches first base as the result of a wild pitch or passed ball.
Rule 10.12(e) Comment: See Rule 10.13 for additional scoring rules relating to wild pitches and passed balls.
(f) The official scorer shall not charge an error when a runner or runners advance as the result of a passed ball, a wild pitch or a balk.
(1) When the fourth called ball is a wild pitch or a passed ball and as a result
(i) the batter-runner advances to a base beyond first base;
(ii) any runner forced to advance by the base on balls advances more than one base; or
(iii) any runner, not forced to advance, advances one or more bases, the official scorer shall score the base on balls and also the wild pitch or passed ball, as the case may be.
(2) When the catcher recovers the ball after a wild pitch or passed ball on the third strike, and throws out the batter-runner at first base, or tags out the batter-runner, but another runner or runners advance, the official scorer shall score the strikeout, the putout and assists, if any, and credit the advance of the other runner or runners on the play as a fielder’s choice.
Rule 10.12(f) Comment: See Rule 10.13 for additional scoring rules relating to wild pitches and passed balls.
10.13 Wild Pitches And Passed Balls
A wild pitch is defined in Rule 2.00 (Wild Pitch). A passed ball is a statistic charged against a catcher whose action has caused a runner or runners to advance, as set forth in this Rule 10.13.
(a) The official scorer shall charge a pitcher with a wild pitch when a legally delivered ball is so high, so wide or so low that the catcher does not stop and control the ball by ordinary effort, thereby permitting a runner or runners to advance. The official scorer shall charge a pitcher with a wild pitch when a legally delivered ball touches the ground or home plate before reaching the catcher and is not handled by the catcher, thereby permitting a runner or runners to advance. When the third strike is a wild pitch, permitting the batter to reach first base, the official scorer shall score a strikeout and a wild pitch.
(b) The official scorer shall charge a catcher with a passed ball when the catcher fails to hold or to control a legally pitched ball that should have been held or controlled with ordinary effort, thereby permitting a runner or runners to advance. When the third strike is a passed ball, permitting the batter to reach first base, the official scorer shall score a strikeout and a passed ball.
Rule 10.13 Comment: The official scorer shall not charge a wild pitch or passed ball if the defensive team makes an out before any runners advance. For example, if a pitch touches the ground and eludes the catcher with a runner on first base, but the catcher recovers the ball and throws to second base in time to retire the runner, the official scorer shall not charge the pitcher with a wild pitch. The official scorer shall credit the advancement of any other runner on the play as a fielder’s choice. If a catcher drops a pitch, for example, with a runner on first base, but the catcher recovers the ball and throws to second base in time to retire the runner, the official scorer shall not charge the catcher with a passed ball. The official scorer shall credit the advancement of any other runner on the play as a fielder’s choice. See Rules 10.07(a), 10.12(e) and 10.12(f) for additional scoring rules relating to wild pitches and passed balls.

 

Very interesting

Maybe this thread will breathe new life into a little get together to discuss proper scoring & common mistakes.....it would generate very lively discussion for sure!