What would you rather have?

The choice between stud pitchers and 3 or 4 position players is a tough one. I would probably take the position players because the game can be won many different ways. For example, the one thing I haven't seen anyone talk about is the baserunning aspect of the game. Sure everyone knows that pitching, defense, and offense are the three aspects of baseball, but I put more emphasis on baserunning than I do offense. There are many ways to get on base other than a clean basehit. So, therefore I want my players to know exactly what to do on the bases in any situation. Others may not agree me but I have seen baserunning lose and win many games.

 

Quote: "The choice between stud pitchers and 3 or 4 position players is a tough one. I would probably take the position players because the game can be won many different ways. For example, the one thing I haven't seen anyone talk about is the baserunning aspect of the game. Sure everyone knows that pitching, defense, and offense are the three aspects of baseball, but I put more emphasis on baserunning than I do offense. There are many ways to get on base other than a clean basehit. So, therefore I want my players to know exactly what to do on the bases in any situation. Others may not agree me but I have seen baserunning lose and win many games."

Got to agree and disagree on this one. While I, in general, agree with going with 3-4 stud position players (at least at the HS level), I just cann’t go with putting emphasis on baserunning as a primary skill anywhere as important as offense or defense or pitching. I would also have to put offense slightly ahead of defense in this case because you can, many times, find ways to cover up a defensive weakness but you just about always have to bat, at least position players. So offense gets a slight edge.

While I agree baserunning is a quality part of the offensive game, it is part of the offensive game and I feel it is secondary to the ability to get on base. In general, if you play a player because of his speed or base running ability and wait for a hit batter, past ball, or error to get a baserunner on base you are going neutralize some of your teams offensive potential and run a high risk of losing games you could have won. Fill your lineup with quality hitters that sport a high on base percentage by giving the team quality at bats, not only hitting the ball but by drawing walks and working the pitcher. Also, if they are already quality batters, from repetition, they probably know something about how to take a lead and read a pitcher. The finer points are learnable, except for pure speed and while speed is nice, I certainly do not want to get caught up in the stopwatch thing as knowing how to take a primary lead, secondary lead, and read a pitcher is just as important, if not more so than speed (assuming the player is not a pure plodder).

You might get by with it in the youth years but, my own personal take on this is that as the players get older and the pitchers and catchers get better, it is just going to be harder and harder to use baserunning as anything other than a part, although a quality part, of the offense.

 

Nice post Gpack!

I'll take the 2 pitchers who can also hit!

 

It has been fun reading the different thoughts on this topic. What makes it interesting is that many teams are faced with this exact dilemma - except for a few that have it all - Wakefield, N. Mech, S. Mech, Hoggard to name a few. My thoughts are that in a playoff setting, two stud pitchers can carry you a long ways. But in most conferences where only two teams making the playoffs, teams with only pitching may never get a chance to show their stuff.

While I am old school and believe that pitching and defense wins games, in this scenario, I might take the 3-4 stud athletes and hope their skills are able to punch across a couple of runs against the stud pitchers. How many times have you seen a great pitcher beat on an opposite field bloop hit; how about the slow roller that the fielder tries to make the play on that ends up sailing down the line for extra bases. I think great pitching and great defense beat great hitting almost every time. However, I believe teams with great pitching and average fielding accompanied by average bats are probably going to lose their share of games.

 

A hard pick, but in high school I would have to go with 3-4 studs with average pitching vs. 1-2 dominate pitchers with no surrounding cast. I know a pitcher can dominate a game but with no supporting cast, any errors or runs may be too much to over come during the course of a season.

Also, a very good post here by GoPackFan. I believe quality hitters are the life blood of a prolific offense. The other things, while they certainly enhance the offense and can mean the difference between having a great instead of very good offense, are secondary and many of them can be taught with a little instruction.

 

I posted earlier in favor of the hitters. I will say this, the only reason is the metal bats make every player a potential hitter. There just isn't too many pitcher dominated games in high school. How many 1-0, 2-1 games do you see in a season, not many. We have all seen the routine fly ball leave the yard, how about the check swing that goes 125 feet and hits the line for a triple, don't forget the big hopper that bounces over everybodys head and 2 runs score. Mix in a couple of walks, passed balls and and 1 lousey error and this well pitched game is out of control and my dominating pitcher is on the bench. You just don't see these same things in a wood bat game. My son has played in 4 of the WWBC tourn. 2 in Atlanta and 2 in Fla. The majority of these games are pitcher dominated and very low scoring. In these games you have to go with an excellent pitching staff and a very solid defense. Give up 4 runs and you will probably lose.
The worse thing that happens to high school teams that have the dominating pitcher, is the rest of the team gets dependent on that guy. When he is not 100% the team forgets how to play ball. 1 error turns into a big deal. A missed scoring opportunity is the end of the world etc. etc. If you could put a line up of hitters out there then you can overcome a lot of these obstacles. 2 runs down 7th. inning, no big deal. Center fielder mis-plays a ball,don't worry about it , we can get it back. Pitcher walks in a run, keep your head up, we are never out of it. Breeds a whole different mind set, a whole different attitude.
We all base our opinions on what we have seen and experienced. Last year I saw Greensboro Page go to the final 4 of the 4-A playoffs. Their pitching staff averaged 82, 83 mph. Their most effective pitcher stayed around 80 to 81. I saw them beat some very good pitchers along the way. In fact every team they beat probably had 2 or 3 better pitchers. Their coach did a good job matching the right pitcher to the team they were playing. They got offense from every player in the line-up and they were never out of a game.Last but not least, whether you favor the hitters or the pitchers I think you have to put a good defense on the field, if you have holes in your defense the ball just finds these guys over and over.

 

Sounds more like men's open league softball than baseball.
I guess there's a lot of work to be done at the high school level in the sense of preparing for the game.

 

I have seen both of these scenarios when my son was playing high school ball several years ago. One year they had 2 average pitchers, the kinda of guys that threw strikes, kept the ball down, moved in and out. Velocity was in the range of 79 to 82. They had about 5 sticks in the lineup that could hit and hit with power. Defensively they were probably about average may be a little above. They had a great year and ended up losing in the 3rd round of the playoffs.

A couple of years later it was just the opposite. Had 2 stud pitchers (upper 80's guys; both went on to D1 ) that carried them the whole year. Winning games 2-0, 2-1, and 3-2. Hitting was weak (averaged about 7 hits a game) and defense was below average. Still won 17 games. First round of the playoffs winning 3-2 in the top of the 6th, stud pitcher gives up a walk, 2 cheap hits along with 2 errors (one being with men of 2nd and 3rd with 2 out a routine fly ball is dropped between 2nd and first 2 runs score). Ended up losing 5-3. The stud pitcher pitched a very good game with several k's.

I think good pitching beats good hitting and can be dominate at times. However I would take the 4- 5 stud players and take my chances going deep in the playoffs.

 

Hmmm .... 2 studs on the mound versus a group of power hitters ...

Has anyone ever heard of small ball? If I remember correctly, Indy had both small ball and some power last year, but they played great "small ball". You don't need 3-4 smashers in the lineup to put pressure on the other team. A little team speed and you can give the other team fits.

Give me the two studs on the mound.

 

Would that be along the lines of "Billy Ball" ? lol