Touching bases rule

Concerning the W.Forsyth/S. Meck baseball game and the former umpire and others saying it should have been a judgement call:


Umpires using "judgement" instead of or along with the rulebook seems like you’re saying rules are relative and absolutes are thrown out. (KEEP READING BEFORE FORMAING AN OPINION) The reason there is a rulebook is to avoid the very thing you’re talking about; to avoid umpires using "judgement" to make a call that is clearly stated in the rules.
Sure, umpires make judgement calls on balls and strikes and whether or not a player legged out an infield single or the ball got to first base before him and other situations, but to say you would blatantly ignore a rule because you didn’t think it was a good rule is a poor excuse. That’s not your job. If a rule is violated, and you know it, your job is to make the right call, and the right call in this situation was to call the runner out.

Can you imagine the chaos about "relative calls" in a game? What you determine "good judgement" someone else determines "poor judgement" Remember, taken to the logical conclusion, that’s what you’re saying. What you deem "good judgement" the other team may not. It leaves it up to an umpire’s opinion, which in this situation isn’t an option. It’s not your decision to determine that he touched the bag (if you saw it) and that he should be called out (since the rule says he should be). That’s clear. Your opinion is trumped by the fact that he didn’t touch the bag and that the rule states he should be called out.

Remember, the reason there is a rule book is to avoid someone’s opinion factoring into the outcome of the game. If the rule needs to be taken out, which is an option, then that’s another arguement. But to say you would have turned your head or lied to the coach had he argued the call to you BY THE RULES, is, in itself, poor judgement and a bad example to the kids playing by the rules.

The speed limit analogy sounds like a good analogy. Unfortunately, it falls apart when you consider that lives aren’t at stake in a baseball game (unless you have one of those crazed and volatile parents who like to shoot umpires or fight them). You’re comparing apples and oranges.

Stick to the rules in the book, change the rules if you don’t like them, but don’t ignore the rules when they’re there because you think it’s a bad rule.

Remember, your opinion, unlike the rule, is only your opinion, and cheats the players who play by the rules.

 

Examples (from MLB and minor lgs concerning touching bases rule)

If the major leaguers are held accountable (at least in this category), then why should we begin to make "judgement" calls concerning a rule that is on the books and applied, EVEN WHEN IT DOESN'T give the baserunner an ADVANTAGE as stated by the former umpire who posted comments concerning this matter?

EXAMPLES (1880-1999)

10/17/1999: In game 5 of the NL Championship Series, the Braves had taken a 3-2 lead in the top of the 15th inning. However, after an one-out intentional walk to load the bases, Todd Pratt walked to push across the tying run for the Mets. Robin Ventura came to the plate with a chance to win the game. Ventura hit a Kevin McGlinchy pitch over the right-centerfield fence for an apparent game-ending grand slam. However, once each baserunner had advanced one base, thus scoring the winning run, Pratt turned and ran towards Ventura to give him a big hug. Ventura had rounded first base and was advancing towards second in his home run trot. He kept motioning to the other runners to keep running. Since each runner only advanced the one bag, Ventura is officially credited with an RBI-single. It would have been the first game-ending grand slam in the history of post-season.
4/29/1985: Yankee Bobby Meacham batted in the top of the fourth inning in Texas with two runners on and one out. He homered off Frank Tanana, but didn’t expect the ball to leave the park. While he was running towards and around first, the runner at first, Willie Randolph was headed back to the bag to tag up. Neither Randolph nor Meacham expected the ball to leave the yard. The collided just past first base and Meacham was credited with a two-run single.

5/14/1982: Pittsburgh's Lee Lacy batted in the bottom of the eighth inning as the first batter to face Tom Hume of the Reds. The bases were loaded with no outs and Lacy hit one of Hume's pitches out of the park. However, in the celebration during his run around the bases, Lacy passed Omar Moreno between first and second. He is credited with a single and three runs batted in. Luckily, Moreno's run won the game for the Pirates 8-7.

1981: Rick Stuart of the Johnson City Cardinals hit the only homer of his professional career over the left field fence. As his teammates gathered around home plate to congratulate him, he failed to touch the plate and was called out on appeal. Stuart is the son of former major leaguer Dick Stuart.

6/24/1977: Ralph Garr of the White Sox homered off Minnesota’s Paul Thormodsgard in Minneapolis. It came in the third inning with two men on and no one out. Jim Essian, the runner on first, thought the ball might be caught by the Twins’ right fielder, Dan Ford, so he retreated towards first base. Garr was watching the flight of the ball and passed Essian after rounding the bag. He was credited with a single and two runs batted in.

7/4/1976: Catcher Tim McCarver of the Phillies hit a grand slam in the second inning of the first game of a doubleheader at Pittsburgh. The 375 foot homer came off Larry Demery. However, after rounding first base, McCarver passed Garry Maddox and was called out. He received credit for a single and three runs batted in.

6/19/1974: Giant Ed Goodson hit a home run in the third inning off Bob Gibson at St. Louis with Garry Maddox on first and no one out. Unfortunately, he passed Maddox between first and second. Goodson was credited with a single and a run batted in.

4/7/1971: Carlos May of the Chicago White Sox homered in the top of the first inning off Rollie Fingers in Oakland. The blow came with two runners on and one out. May did not touch home plate and was out on appeal.

7/9/1970: In the seventh inning at Tiger Stadium, Dalton Jones pinch hit for Jim Price with the bases loaded. Jones hammered the 2-2 pitch into the upper deck in right field for a grand slam. However, Jones passed Don Wert between first and second and was called out, thus ending up with a 3-RBI single. Vicente Romo has entered the game to face Jones.

4/21/1967: Tony Oliva of Minnesota lost a home run due to a base running blunder. Playing in Detroit in the third inning, Cesar Tovar was the runner at first base. Oliva hit the ball out of the park off Denny McLain, but then passed Tovar between first and second. He was credited with a single and one RBI for scoring Tovar.

5/26/1959: Joe Adcock lost a homer in Harvey Haddix' perfect game. In the bottom of the 13th inning, after Felix Mantilla reached on an error and was sacrificed to second, Hank Aaron was intentionally walked. Adcock then hit his home run. However, Aaron didn't know the ball left the park, so he returned to the dugout and Adcock was called out for passing Aaron.

8/10/1958: Las Vegas third baseman Elmo Plaskett hit a home run in a California League game at Fresno off Tom Fitzgerald. The hit came with one on and one out in the second inning. After crossing the plate, Plaskett realized he had missed the first base bag and circled the bases again to make up for it. When a new ball was put in play, Fresno appealed and Plaskett was called out on appeal.

4/26/1931: In the first inning with Lyn Lary on first and two out, Lou Gehrig hit a home run into the centerfield bleachers at Griffith Stadium. However, the ball caromed back to the centerfielder. Lary returned to the dugout, evidently thinking the ball was caught. Gehrig was declared out for passing the runner and lost the homer. He ended the year tied for the lead in homers with Babe Ruth.

9/15/1930: In the bottom of the second with runners on 1b and 2b, Dodger Glenn Wright hit the ball to right-center. It looked like it might be caught so Babe Herman slowed up as he neared 2b. The ball bounced over the fence for a home run but Wright had his head down as he ran between 1b and 2b. Consequently, he passed Herman and was called out. He lost a homer but still knocked in 2 runs.

5/30/1930: In the first game of a Memorial Day doubleheader, Dodger Del Bissonette batted against Claude Willoughby of the Phillies in the bottom of the fourth inning with runners on first and second. As Bissonette’s fly ball neared the fence, Babe Herman, fearing a catch, stopped. Bissonette didn’t see Herman and passed him. He was called out by umpire Cy Pfirman and was credited with a 2-RBI single.

7/28/1924: In an International League game at Rochester, Fred Merkel hit a home run against Baltimore with Griffin on second and Gonzales on third. Griffin passed Gonzales before the latter could score for the third out. The three lost runs cost Rochester the game, as they lost 4-2 to the Orioles.

9/12/1920: In the top of the fourth inning of a game in Chicago, Washington's Frank Ellerbe was on first base with two outs. Patsy Gharrity hit the ball into the left field bleachers for an apparent two-run homer. When Ellerbe heard the fans in those seats cheering he thought Joe Jackson had caught the ball which would have ended the inning. After rounding third base, Ellerbe turned and went to his shortstop position. Meanwhile Gharrity trotted around the bases. When he rounded third base, he was called out for passing Ellerbe. Both umpires, Bill Dineen and Ollie Chill, made the call. Washington argued that since the ball was out of play it did make any difference that Gharrity passed Ellerbe.

10/4/1904: In the second game of a double header on the last day of the season, Jack Dunn of the Giants homered. However, he was called out by umpire Jim Johnstone for missing first base. This and other protests caused the arbiter to forfeit the game to St. Louis.

5/30/1903: In the top of the first, the Phillies had a runner on 1b and two out. Bill Keister hit a ball off Henry Schmidt that got past the Brooklyn fielders into lcf and he ran all the way around for an IPHR. However, umpire Johnson ruled that he cut 2b (not touching it) and Keister ended up with an RBI single.

9/23/1880: Worcester’s pitcher Fred Corey hit an inside-the-park homer against Boston but failed to touch third base and was credited with a double.

 

Holy Dookie!!!!!

Where did u researsch this INSIDER?????????? Great stuff I like...........

 

Interesting stuff, Insider. But it does not change my opinion a bit. Unless the violation is blatant, the best umpires would have been blind to Dusty's alleged mistake. Judment Calls afford this opportunity.

This is true in every sport. In football, holding can be flagged on every snap. In basketball, a foul (contact) occurs on every trip down the floor. Even in baseball....The plate umpire has to decide on a strike zone, & nobody wants 'armpit high' strikes to be called (which is the letter of the law).

If the umpire had simply said: "Coach, he caught the corner of the bag with his clete" this discussion would not exist. The Indy fans would not be complaining because NOBODY wants that call. Sure, after it happens you'll take it, but the truth is the spirit of competition was harmed because an ump applied the letter of the rule at the wrong time.

Just my opinion.

 

What about......

George Brett's pine tar incident at Yankee Stadium!??!!? Now let s get the fire started..

 

WOW.. I'm not sure if I've seen such thorough research on such a thing...

But, I agree with Insider. Just the other day, a guy for Baylor hit a homerun with a runner on first. The runner thought the outfielder was getting ready to catch it and went back to tag. The hitter/runner was caught up watching the ball and accidentally passed the runner by about 4 feet. It did not affect the play at all but the RULE says he's out and the umps were all over it.

I don't buy the argument at all that the "best" umpires (wherever they are) should ignore little things like that and only focus on the real important calls. Most of them have enough trouble with real judgment calls such as safe/out, ball/strike. Outside of those calls, they need to stick to the rule book. Knowing and consistently enforcing the rule book is the one thing that coaches, players and fans should be able to count on from umpires.

With all that said, I still think Brett got shafted!!

 

THATS A FACT!!!!!!!!!

'nuff said!

 

Concerning UK7DOOK3's post....


To say you wouldn't make the call and would LIE if you saw the kid miss the bag is, in itself, poor judgement and a poor example to the kids playing by the rules.

You said, "Unless the violation is blatant, the best umpires would have been blind to Dusty's alleged mistake. Judment Calls afford this opportunity."

THIS IS NOT A JUDGMENT CALL IF YOU SAW IT. End of story. If you saw it. It's fact. The rule says if the kid didn't touch the bag, he's out. No judgement involved. No guessing either. If you saw it, he's out. The rule doesn't say, "if the runner misses the bag, and the umpire feels like he doesn't want to call the kid out, he shouldn't." It says he's out. HOW IN THE WORLD CAN YOU SAY IT IS A JUDGEMENT CALL? (please tell me you're not an umpire or, if you are, please tell me you don't still umpire games).

When you mention holding in football, a foul in basketball and a strike or ball in baseball being judgements, that is true to an extent, BUT IF THE UMPIRE SAW THE KID MISS THE BAG, IT CEASES TO BE A JUDGEMENT CALL. IT IS EITHER HE DID OR DIDN'T. IF HE DID TOUCH, HE'S SAFE. IF HE DIDN'T TOUCH, HE'S OUT. PERIOD. END OF STORY.

THAT'S WHY WE HAVE RULES SO UMPIRES WON'T MAKE UP THEIR OWN IN A GAME.

Should the rule be take off the books? Maybe. But that's not for you to decide during a game or to interject your opinion. Your job is to call the game by the rules. WHY, THEN, HAVE A RULE BOOK? If it's there, it's there for you to call. If it's not there, then it doesn't matter....Again, I can't believe you would turn your head to a rule that is written and that you are RESPONSIBLE to call if you saw it, AND, AND, AND that YOU WOULD LIE to a coach who has the right to have the call made since it's on the book!!! UNBELIEVABLE!!!

YOU SAID, "...the truth is the spirit of competition was harmed because an ump applied the letter of the rule at the wrong time." YOU'RE UNBELIEVABLE!!! HE APPLIED THE RULE BECAUSE IT'S THERE AND, AS AN UMPIRE, HE'S RESPONSIBLE FOR CALLING IT IF HE SAW IT!!!

Your logic, taken to the extreme would create choas.

I'll repeat this again: the reason there is a rule book is to avoid someone’s opinion factoring into the outcome of the game. If the rule needs to be taken out, which is an option, then that’s another arguement. But to say you would have turned your head or lied to the coach had he argued the call to you BY THE RULES, is, in itself, poor judgement and a bad example to the kids playing by the rules.

Stick to the rules in the book, change the rules if you don’t like them, but don’t ignore the rules when they’re there because you think it’s a bad rule.

Remember, your opinion, unlike the rule, is only your opinion, and cheats the players who play by the rules.

 

EXCELLENT :229031_ha

 

Agree with insider

I'm a firm believer that besides just giving kids an emotional release, Sports afford kids the opportunity to learn some valuable lessons in life. It makes them better people for having played and learned those valuable lessons. One of those lessons is that there are consequences to our actions. Do we like to see kids suffer those consequences, of course not. Are those consequences always fair, NO, but neither is life. But they will be a better person for it after they accept it and learn from it. Those failures and learning situations are what help these kids become leaders and successes later in life. Don't start turning sports into a babying process that a lot of people in society want it to become. Rules are rules, expect the kids to play by them or else they risk facing the consequences. Hold them accountable and they will grow up to be better people for it. Let them slide by, making excuses for them and we are setting them up for future failures.