Stats Question

I think you misunderstood what I said about the missed foul. I was saying that I think that technically it is an error since it prolonged the at-bat, but that most people holding a scorebook are not going to record it as more than a mark in any empty strike box.

I have seen levels and levels of ability (or maybe it's just attitude, don't know) on scorekeeping. From "any player that gets out gets a big 'X' in their box and any player that gets home gets a filled-in diamond with no other markings" to books that record pitch sequence, each base advance by PB, WP, SB all properly marked, and RBIs attributed to the proper batter. I'm saying that most of the people who keep books are in the middle of this range and most won't score that error. The one nearer the latter end probably will.

Three weeks ago I was computing stats for my DD's JV team. The book had been scored by a guy who records pitch sequence, but also records the play on a leading runner in her box instead of the batters box (actually one of the best books I've had to try to compute stats from, which is why I was even thinking about doing fielding stats). I had decided to try to accumulate fielding stats and was trying to answer such questions as:
Dropped third strike - Error on the Catcher?
Does someone get a put out on a strike out? Who?

So... I get into a discussion with someone scoring an ASA game on Saturday. I tell him "No" to the first, and "No" to the second, which is what I found (or had to rule in absence of contradiction) in the NFHS book. On Tuesday, I looked in the ASA book and found explicit "Yes" that a catcher does get a putout on the strikeout (11.2.B.4.b.1). NFHS is pretty explicit that a D3K is either a PB or a WP not an "E", but since ASA isn't explicit, the "prolongs the life" seems to rule for "E". And also that a batter making 1B on Catcher's Obtruction is also an error on the catcher (11.2.B.6.c) another thing I argued that was not an error.

In short, the answers may change from sanction to sanction, and almost anyone could learn something about scoring that they're doing wrong now.

 

Jeffro to Jeffro....

.....hey, this jeff, the fishman, has got to say that "JMac" is one smart TBR poster. Just reading his posts shows that he knows the game. Yes scoring plays IS a learning process........check this out....Ariz. St., runner on 1B, next batter bunts to 3B, 3B looking to get the lead runner going to 2nd, realizes she's made a mistake seeing that she would not get the out or there might not have been a player covering the 2B bag in time....anyway, she checks her throw, then looks for an out 1st, she sees that the 1B out is not happening, so she holds the ball.......Official score of this play was ruled a SAC. for the batter, and a FC for the fielder. No hit, and no error. JMac is right about how we all learn odd scoring issues everyday.

 

Just checked the ASU and UCLA game news....

.....and boxscores. **** UCLA post..."in the 5th, sun Devils added 2 more runs....Cochran was intent. walked and Vasquez reached 1st on an FC Sac..." in the UCLA boxscore, Vasquez is listed as going 1-1. *****ASU post..."ASU wasn't done.....for another int. walk to Cochran....Jackie Vasquez reached 1st on a FC." No boxscore on ASU site. OK, One thing is for sure.....scoring stuff is a trip!

 

Obviously I've got a lot more to learn. A SAC? How can it be a SAC when she reached? FC I've no problem with.

 

This caught up with me during a stray moment. It's a SAC because she intended to SAC and advanced the runner. She reached due to a FC. However, she shouldn't get the AB charged to her and scoring it as a SAC accomplishes that.

 

D3K

Jeffer, I'm curious how you would score any runs that followed the D3K. Let's say the D3K should have been the 3rd out of the inning and no runs would have scored. Next batter hits a single that scores two runs. To me, those are both unearned runs.

Also, there are different types of D3K depending on who is scorekeeping. Did the pitch get past the catcher or did the catcher drop the pitch and make a bad throw. If it is the latter, was the throw errant or did the person covering 1B simply not catch the ball?

Another scenario, likely on a riseball. The batter swings and misses on third strike at pitch well above head, catcher couldn't catch pitch either. Batter reaches first base. It would seem that isn't an error on the catcher nor is it a passed ball. It would be a wild pitch I suppose. As you have said, it all depends on who is keeping score. My guess is that someone might call that a DK3, which it is not.

My two cents is that a true dropped third strike (ball was in catcher's mitt) is an error, as is catcher's obstruction.

It is always interesting to see how folks score things. My daughter pitched a game this spring where I felt 3 errors were made. Next day in the boxscore I only saw 1 error. One was a D3K, where the catcher made a bad throw. The second play was a hard grounder right at our SS, who charged the ball, dropped it and didn't make a throw. To me this was clearly an error. The runner was quick. But, if the ball was handled properly she would have been out. The third play was a line drive right at the second baseman. She totally misses the ball and it goes into RCF. To me, these were all routine plays and should have been scored errors.

 

According to the text of the NFHS scoring rules, it says any runs that score after the team has had an opportunity to make the third out are not earned runs.

NFHS says that D3K's are to be scored as WP or PB as appropriate. I guess if there's a bad throw or catch in the exchange between catcher and first, then yes, that is an opportunity for an error.

I'd put it in the book as a D3K(WP).

D3K (or dropped third strike) is used as a pretty broad term including uncaught third strike. ASA (unlike NFHS) doesn't go into scoring the D3K as a PB or WP, and it does say that anything that prolongs a batter's or runner's "life" is an error, so you've got some support for that. ASA explicitly lists CO as an error, while NFHS doesn't.

Pitcher's dads are the hardest to satisfy ("was that a hit or an error?"), followed closely by the catcher's dad ("was that a PB or a WP?"). You can't make everyone happy. I've found that most of us who are serious about scorekeeping are quite happy to having a knowledgeable sounding board nearby to ask things like "was that ball too sharply hit or was that an error?" To get accurate stats it would be best to have a paid, impartial scorekeeper keep the books, and that's just not going to happen below college level or the highest levels of HS playoff contests.