Keeping Young Pitchers Healthy

I agree with the sentiments Coach27 describes. I have always been a believer that one "teaches' their arm to throw "x' amount of pitches.

But I am also a firm believer that something is wrong....terribly wrong. There is no excuse for all of the arm injuries that we see in younger kids. If you asked Orthopedic Drs. how many patients have they heard or seen that are 16-U have UCL tears, torn labrums and rotator cuff tears...they would say..impossible! It can't happen. But unfortunately, it is happening and happening at an alarming rate. And there must be a reason for it.

I can say this: I don't know why we didn't have arm troubles growing up in my years. It was a rarity to see anyone go down with arm injury (and the few that did was after college). Why is that? It was also an era when weight training was not only frowned upon, but would put you in the doghouse. Now I'm not advocating anything because I honestly don't know the reason arm injuries are so prevalent. But there must be a correlation of why there were so few arm injuries in the 60's, 70's, 80's and some of the 90's and to an unexcusable number of players now. And what is even more alarming are the young ages of the players requiring surgery.

Is it the difference in pitch counts? I don't think so. The guys I grew up with focused on pitching a 9 inning game, not 7

Was it better coaching back then? No...the coaches now are so much more sophisticated when it comes to training

Most of us played all 3 sports growing up. So was it the time taken off between sports? Maybe

Most college baseball players did not play summer ball. The Cape was available, but it was not thought of the same as it is now. Heck, the Alaskan League was on par with the Cape. But most college players attended summer school and worked.

Today's pitching coaches- the problem I have with many of them is they rarely agree on the same things; while other's belief changes depending on what seminar they attended. So, as a parent or player we tend to line up with the coach we agree with and trust they are right. And many pitching coaches are former players that never pitched....so they have no real idea what it is like...they can only assume what it's like. If you don't believe me, have a discussion with a pitching coach that has pitched. He will tell you the same thing I just did.

In conclusion, I'm left from where I started. I have no idea why it is so prevalent now....but it is...and there has to be a reason(s) for it.

 

Well said

 

That is a big factor. Some of the studies listed above noted that off-seasons are important for muscle and ligament recovery. The types of pitches thrown are also a determinant, as I think breaking pitches are more common now than they used to be. Sliders in particular should just never be thrown by young pitchers, and some are debating whether or not they're even appropriate for any pitchers (a lot of teams will take the slider out of a pitcher's repertoire unless it is their dominant "out" pitch). And some of it is probably just getting better at diagnosing injuries. Some adults find out late in life that they've been living with rotator cuff tears or UCL damage.

That's precisely why USA Baseball commissioned these studies and issued proclamations about appropriate pitch limits, because they wanted to establish a uniform age-based standard.

 

America has changed too ... In the "Good Old Days", most players grew up on a farm, worked hard their entire lives, starting at a very young age.

There's a phrase you still here in baseball talking about a player ... "Country Strong". Not necessarily sculpted, or a body builder, but can work/throw/whatever all day long.

Weight lifting increases bone density ... known fact ... but I bet working on a farm all your life increases it even more. And their diet in the "good old days" was probably better too... more calcium, natural minerals, etc.

I don't think there is a good answer ... life has changed and everyone has to deal with it.

JMHO

 

Hmmm...

Collin. Understand my point. What I was trying to say is that we can talk about several different scenarios with pitchers. Each pitcher will be different. Even though most doctors make generalizations, can we really make a call on how many pitches a kid throws in a year? C'mon. No doctor can predict or give scientific proof that a certain amount of pitches thrown over the course of a year can affect a pitcher.

I'm not saying that a pitch count is wrong. I believe in pitch counts. I believe in pitch counts that a pitcher has prepared for. I threw out 150 as a number that would challenge some thinking. Other than that, I don't believe that most pitchers are able to throw that many pitches in a game. I definitely do not believe a pitcher at a youth level can throw that many pitches.

To say what Coach 27 and I said was anecdotal, is silly. For every doctor that has a report on what number of pitches a kid should throw, there is a biomechanics expert out there that would disagree with that number. You quoted me on evidence, yet I provided none. I simply stated that it was my opinion.

I think you made a lot of good points in your post further down... I have to say though that I agree much more on what Coach 27 posted previously. I'm not sure that I could have stated it better myself.

The engineer building a bridge is not a good analogy. It's apples and oranges. My point on a doctor not throwing a pitch past eighteen years old, was simply to imply that they do not bring the human factor of feel into the equation. You can look in a book and study bones and ligaments all that you want. But what you cannot do is go on what a pitcher feels like, or better yet, what they have prepared for.

 

I understand what you're getting at, which is why I posted, because despite good intentions you're advocating something that is wrong and dangerous.

Yes, they can, which is why I just posted links to studies where they've done exactly that. I wanted to dispel the myth that pitch counts are just arbitrarily designed. Some people, especially older people, naively think that pitch counts are babying athletes and that they should just be tougher like everyone was in the "good ol' days." While I understand why they might get that impression, it's not the case.

You're clearly not grasping the point. While strength training and conditioning are very important for developing endurance and being able to maintain proper mechanics through fatigue, there are finite limits on what young arms are capable of. No group of young men can be trained to throw 150 pitches an outing. It is not a matter of preparation, it is a matter of physiology. The act of throwing is an unnatural motion that, over time, frays ligaments and tendons. At least in adulthood the musculature has more fully developed and is more resistant to repeated high stress motions, yet even an adult is not capable of being "trained" to throw 150 pitches regularly. There are points at which the body simply breaks down regardless of training, and that threshold is much lower for younger athletes that are still growing. Take a look at niknat's post and what he said about growth plates.

No, it's accurate. I don't think you know what anecdotal means. I'm not saying that your experience is meaningless, but simply that it is unscientific and not necessarily representative. That's the whole point of having controlled experimentation and documentation in science.

Once again, you are wrong. Some of the studies I linked to were published in the Journal of Biomechanics and were conducted by some of the foremost experts in the field.

As they shouldn't. Anyone who values "feel" over science is courting substantial risk, and I don't see any good reason to let you continue advocating something that places young men at unnecessary risk just because you feel they should be tougher. You have not read the research and you do not know the science. I understand that you have good intentions, but I am pleading with you to read the information and digest it because the things you are advocating are wrong and dangerous.

Sure, and whenever you feel chest pain, don't call 911 or go see a doctor. Why go to an expert who has studied human physiology when you can go down to the local burger joint and alert someone else who has had chest pain before?

 

ok

Collin.

Buddy chill a little bit. I feel like you're saying that I'm walking into stadiums and telling each kid to throw until they're arm falls off.

[FONT=verdana, arial, sans-serif]"For example, before 1971, the "Disabled List," as we know it today, didn't even exist. Complete games were common place. Injuries, as well as access to orthopedic surgeons and physical therapists, were rare. [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, sans-serif]Pitch counts were not recorded prior to 1971. Prior to 1975, pitchers were not cloned nor their movements choreographed. They were not forced to comply with some theoretical model or "ideal." Their deliveries were not "cookie cut" nor their bodies "posed" into certain specific positions. After 1975, cloning and choreographing the pitching delivery became more and more prevalent. Today, it is standard operating procedure. [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, sans-serif]Instead, prior to 1975, pitching athletes threw with freedom and energy and learned by trial and error. Thousands of trials…hundreds of errors. Lots of natural learning. [/FONT]

[FONT=verdana, arial, sans-serif][FONT=verdana, arial, sans-serif]Injuries, especially to youth pitchers, are increasing at an alarming rate.[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, sans-serif]Surgical interventions to all pitchers, particularly pitchers 12-14 years of age, are at epidemic proportions.[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, sans-serif]Complete games at the MLB/Professional level are exceptionally rare.[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, sans-serif]76% of ML Pitchers spent at least some time on the DL in 2005.[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, sans-serif]Most youth pitchers spend their time between starts resting for their next start.[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, sans-serif]Access to orthopedic surgeons, physical therapists, and private pitching coaches are at an ALL Time high." - [/FONT]

[FONT=verdana, arial, sans-serif]Ron Wolforth, owner of the Texas Baseball Ranch.[/FONT]

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The young player is no longer able to develop his basic motor skills in a friendly open environment. The playground games were competitive and you did want to strike Johnny out, but you were also playing because it was fun. No one was telling you that you had to hold the ball a certain way or line up your shoulders a certain way or...

Pitch limits sound good. But are not consistent with the first principle of athletic training (physiology): "to increase the size or functional ability, muscle fibers must be taxed toward their present capacity to respond."

Gone are the playground days where a player would get 20 at bats or 300 tosses. Now players are lucky to get 10 swings twice a week. Or two throwing sessions of 40 pitches twice a week. This has directly affected the baseball athleticism and creative learning ability of today's players. Almost every player (USA) is regimented into a specific pitching belief system (coach, instructor or parent) before they have any opportunity to explore their own athletic capabilities.

They are totally dependant on the quality of their organized baseball experience. And the capability (or lack) of those who are coaching them. This is not a putdown for all of those who are doing their best to help a player reach their potential. It is just the reality of today's youth baseball.

-"Paul Nyman" owner of Setpro




How do you know if my methods are dangerous? Come watch my guys... Anytime that you want... Shoot me a PM and I'll invite you to come see what I do. I'll even buy you lunch if you come out.

I implore you to read the other side of it.

Anecdotal- Based on casual observations or indications rather than rigorous or scientific analysis.

Look. I don't think that you can say that what I know or do is a casual observation. I also do not think you can say what I do is scientific analysis. So you are partly right with anecdotal. I'm just gonna let the jabs in the ribs go. I don't feel like trying to make me sound stupid to other people on the board is very positive.

Comparing throwing a baseball to having a heart attack is taking this way out of proportion buddy. I'm not disagreeing with doctors. Why do people go see four different doctors when getting an opinion on an injury? They all have different opinions. To say that every doctor in the whole world feels this way is an open ended generalization.

Oh yeah, I'm going to bet that I've read more research than you think I have... It's as important to me as anything that I do in my life.

 

[FONT=verdana, arial, sans-serif]
That is blatantly untrue. Arm injuries back then were common, and often ended careers, unlike now where medical procedures generally give anyone a chance to come back. Cool Papa Bell and Sandy Koufax were far from exceptions. The average pitcher's career is substantially longer now than it was in those days, and that's with pitchers throwing at a substantially higher average velocity than in prior eras, while also throwing more breaking pitches than their predecessors. Innings totals and complete games are way down, but because people now recognize the relationship between overuse and injuries. Owners don't want to invest millions in a guy who suddenly can't pitch effectively anymore.
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The person who wrote this (Paul Nyman, a computer engineer) does not appear to be well educated about human physiology. Ask any bodybuilder if their workout consists of repeatedly lifting their maximum weight. No one trains that way because the body doesn't work that way. You don't increase personal bests in weight lifting by continuously lifting the most you can day after day. Max effort activities put stress on the body and break it down. Weight lifters improve their maximum output by training at 80% or so of their maximum, followed by periods of rest for muscle recovery. Similiarly, pitching at max effort repeatedly only serves to do damage to the shoulder and elbow, not strengthen them. Coach 27 is correct and you are not. The proper way to develop arm strength is through high but not max load activities like long toss or playing other positions.

Because medical studies have said so.

You haven't presented any other side except a misinformed diatribe by a computer engineer who now runs a supposed performance institute. I value the conclusions of experts who have conducted medical studies, not some random guy on the internet with something to sell (by this I mean Nyman). If you have actual scientific data to back up anything you're saying, by all means share that with us. But if you don't, I would ask you to stop spreading misinformation and possibly putting young athletes at risk by advocating dangerous behaviors.

That's exactly what it is. When you're just providing personal experience or observation as "evidence" of something, then it is anecdotal. That's true whether it's your experience or mine or even Greg Maddux's. I'm not saying that anecdotal evidence has no value, because it does, but it's still inferior to scientific data.

Yes, you are. You were very clearly dismissing the conclusions of physiologists and other medical professionals because they supposedly didn't know what it "felt like" to throw a baseball as an adult. You said that, although I understand why you'd want to back away from such statements now.

I didn't say that every doctor in the world agreed. I don't know that every doctor agrees on anything, but that's not the point. Again, it's the scientific data resulting from medical studies that is important, and as far as I know, all such studies have shown the same results when it comes to young athletes and pitching.

 

The focus

on building a healthy strong arm should be the concern. Not how many games your son pitches. We are talking about young kids here. The vast majority of the throwing should be done to teach proper throwing mechanics , and building arm strength. The problem is the vast majority of these kids time throwing is spent in max effort situations throwing in games. And not nearly enough time is spent on throwing to build arm strength.

Its very hard to do this when you are playing year round at these ages and playing on two teams at a time.

 

Rare very rare.