Baseball Talk: Hitting, Pitching, Catching Strategy

Radar Guns

Wanted to throw this topic out and get some opinions from those who are more expert than I.
We use a Stalker gun. When someone shows up with a Juggs, the Juggs seems to clock a couple of mph faster. We also have a Juggs and when both are tuned we have noticed the same thing on ours.
Any opinions?

 

Jugs versus Stalker

The difference comes in the sampling rate.... Literally, what that means is how often (measured in 100's per second) does the gun fire it's sample beam. The stalker uses a slower sample rate. As such, the velocity reported is the speed of the baseball when it is about 30 feet out of the pitchers hand. The Jugs gun gives you pretty much "out-of-hand" speed.

Depending on grip (4 seam versus 2 seam) and rate of rotation (amount of spin) that is on the baseball, the rate that the velocity degrades on the way to the plate can vary. The general rule of thumb is that a baseball slows down 1 mph per 7 feet of horizontal travel.

Someone throwing a 4 seamer who generates a lot of spin will have his FB slow down a little slower than the classic formula.

Throwing a 2-seamer will cause the ball to slow down faster, particularly if the spin rate is lower. The Jugs will measure these two pitches as being the same speed. The Stalker will give you the effective difference in the two.

I believe that the Stalker is the better of the two for checking pitchers. It gives a more realistic view of the real pitch... how much spin he is generating (inferred), the speed difference between the 2-seamer, 4-seamer. The out of hand velocity is a nice number to know, but it's got going to get batters out by itself. It gives no indication of changing speeds or the element of deception on the pitch. If you can only get 1 gun, get a Stalker.

 

I've read a lot of answers to that question over the last few years. Yours, NC, is the best I've ever seen...by a WIDE margin.

 

Very interesting, I noticed when it was being used the Stalker gave 2 readings. The guy that runs it for the team explained to me that the top reading was at release and the bottom was when it crossed the plate. He is ordering the wireless attachment so that it will show up on the scoreboard. That ought to be fun.

 

Speed posted on the scoreboard at pro games is certainly a welcome feature, but I'd be concerned about high school-aged pitchers altering their mechanics in ways they shouldn't to try to squeeze that last mph out of their delivery.

 

jugs vs. stalker

I would have to agree with you. We use a stalker at all of our games and chart every pitch. I know that all of our pitchers' 2-seamers are a good 5 to 6 miles an hour off off their 4-seamers. I know the stalker is a much more expensive gun, but also contains many more features and available settings. If you look at a group of scouts at games or showcases, usually about 90% of them use stalkers. Personally, when I pitch, I don't mind throwing to a Jugs, because they defenitely give you an extra 1-2 MPH, which always makes you feel good. (Maybe thats why I've heard Jugs called "steroid guns") But it really doesn't come down to 1 exact mile an hour any way, what matters is the range in which you can pitch consistently at. so anyways, that's all i got...

 

Eatthis:

As a high school pitcher, how would you feel about posting the speed on the scoreboard? If you're an upperclassman, would it make any difference if you were considering, say, sophomores?

 

The Rate of Spin

This is almost a different thread, but I really don't think too many people are interested in the Physics of baseball. They just want to play the game.

You often hear of how important it is for a hitter to have strong wrists (such as Hank Aaron was credited for having the strongest wrists of any hitter in the game). It is MORE important for a pitcher to have strong wrists AND to generate a "snap" on the ball at release. This difficult to develop and control and is a constantly evolving process for most pitchers until they are in the mid-20's.

The "snap" imparts more spin on the ball. The seams of a baseball create a "boundary layer" of trapped air against the ball that is spinning at the same speed of the baseball. This trapped air layer decreases the co-efficient of drag, thus the ball isn't slowed as quickly. The faster the spin rate, the less the drag.
Also, the more seams exposed to the rotation, trapping air in the boundary layer, the less the drag. So a 4 seamer will always have a faster "plate" velocity than a 2 seamer, even though the velocity of the pitch (out of hand) is identical.

The spin rate on the ball is referred to (by baseball people) as "Life". If you hear someone say that a pitcher is getting good "life" on the ball, he is generating a good amount of spin.

A ball with good "life" is a ball with good potential for 2nd stage movement (or late movement). As the ball slows nearing the plate, the spin imparted and the "plane" the ball is spinning in have a tendency to move the baseball. 2 seamers slow more, so they have more movement. A 4 seamer will have a smaller degree of movement since it doesn't slow as much.

A 4 seamer may "appear" to "hop" as it nears the plate. What this means is that the spin rate is great enough that the ball slows LESS than other 4 seam fastballs, so the effective plate velocity is higher than expected. This adds an element of deception to the pitch.

The most common movement on a 2 seamer is a late breaking sinker movement down and towards the pitching arm side. The higher the spin rate, the later the movement occurs in the pitch, thus the greater the deception.

You also hear of a curve-ball pitcher "throwing the ball through the break". This isn't a case of throwing the ball too hard, thus the break happens too late to be effective. It really means that the pitcher did not get an adequate spin rate on the ball to make the break occur. Rolling curve balls occur when you have a decent spin rate and a lower delivery speed (so you see a breaking action all the way to the plate). It's called an Uncle Charlie or a "C". A "Yellow Hammer" is a curve ball that is thrown hard with a high spin rate. The ball has a gentle breaking action towards the plate and DIVES down and away hard, late. This is the knee-buckling, catcher-beating, umpire-hating NASTY. (Thus the phrase "dropping the hammer" - I think we know where the color came from )

 

I would have to echo Prepster's concern on the topic. Very few Sophomores have the knowledge and, more importantly the MATURITY necessary to even KNOW how fast they throw a baseball. The hormones are pumping too hard for a Frosh or Soph to be able to turn back to CF and see that his "heat" registered 76 on the gun, while the Junior/Senior he was facing was registering 86 on the gun. I can see him starting to try and "muscle" the ball to the plate.

I would make sure that I had the consent of BOTH coaches in any game before posting the speeds on the board for that game. If either one objected, NO speeds should be posted. It would be even worse if you posted for 1 pitcher and not the other.

Two mature seniors in a top-flight matchup with a big crowd...It could be fun.

 

Yeah..like Marion vs Bard

That won't happen though !!

The rest of the comments by NC..I was just going to say that