When should a pitcher learn the curve ball

I think this just illustrates that it takes more than hard work and a good (or bad, depending on your opinion of House) instruction to throw 90. The great majority of young pitchers (rec league through college) won't hit 90, no matter how hard they work or who their coach is, whether its Leo Mazzoni or Tom House or metro or whoever. To some extent, you're either born with it or you're not. Maybe those guys just weren't born with it.

 

I think a kid should learn a change-up prior to thorwing a curveball. A change-up can be more effective, due to the fact that at release point its just like a fastball. In attending camps during the offseason the majority of college coaches i've spoken to would rather a kid have COMMAND of a change-up, they would rather teach a curveball, or slider, or any other breaking pitch

 

Metro- You raise some for valid points and have listed some great experiences. That is fine. I truly respect and listen to what you are saying. I believe you. Whether you believe me or not, really makes no difference. I work at my game to stay in shape to help my team win on a consistent basis, not to come on here and tell people like yourself that my arm never hurts. I really do not care. All I am saying is, that since I have been combining some things that Tom House has taught me (never claimed that he invented them, or that was not my intention) with my own regiment, I am "yet to wake up sore". This includes after pitching 13 innings in the state finals in one weekend.
Now before you give me the, "that is going to hurt you in the long term speech" in your next post, please do not. This thread is on throwing curve balls. And I am not going to talk about what all I have done in pre-season and post game work outs to prepare myself for the extreme number of innings that I knew I was going to have to throw this year, as well as that sort of scenario i nthe state finals.
Lets keep this thread on curveballs and not Metro and I. Thats all I got on this.

"Knock on Wood"!

 

up, you cannot throw 13 innings in one weekend and not be sore. If you did, you are the bionic man and medical professionals need to examine you immediately. If the Tom House gimmicks work for you, and they must be if you are good enough to go to UNC, then keep doing it. I believe in throwing ALOT. the Leo Mazzoni way, but 13 innings in one weekend is stupid. Tom House does have some great methods to stay in shape, and I will leave it at that. I like your determination about House, but beware, you are just a pup, and there are alot of ways out there to get batters out. House can't teach a pitcher to have a nutsack and get an out when you need it most. If House says curveballs should not be thrown until after puberty, fine, but that is just his opinion, and alot of professionals have questioned his opinions over the last 15 years and there is a reason he has not been a successful mlb pitching coach.

 

Metro i agree with some of things you are saying but for you to telling someone that they can't accomplish something your definately telling it to the wrong person (up and in). Ive played with him for 4 years and never in my life have i seen a harder worker. There may be a reason that Houses methods dont work for people and thats because they arent doing it right, i know a lot of guys who think to much of themselves to actually work hard enough to see a difference in what someone has tought them. And up and in just may be the bionic man because ive seen him do some amazing stuff on the mound but i believe him and trust his word like many others that know him. He did a lot for me by just being my teammate and allowing me to see what he does to make himself better and as soon as i started mimicing what he did i saw a huge increase in my capabilities as well as my coaches.So even though i know your gonna have something else to say and disagree about someone methods, more people than you think use the same methods and use their own even if they dont work. Just because something works for one person, it doesnt mean its going to work for another. You only what you want out of something as much as you put in. And something that was told to me by UP is "its not what you do when people are looking that makes you better but what you do when theres no one watching."

 

what did I say he can't accomplish?

the sky is the limit for up/in. I think its great he understands conditioning. but, it is impossible to throw 13 innings in 2 days and not have some soreness. I have thrown 200 innings in one year, so I know something about this, and I was in fantastic shape at the time. He was using that as support for Tom House conditioning, and that is simply not physically possible, unless every hitter got out on the first pitch, and in those 13 innings he threw 39 pitches total. I have no problem with him using Tom House, but myself and many others with alot more experience than you kids, have found Tom House to be suspect with his gimmicks. If it works for you guys, keep doing it. But, don't make statements that are not physically possible to people who have alot more baseball knowledge than yourselves.

 

As usual, Metro, you are showing your need for further education.

Is it physically possible to throw 13 innings over a Friday/Sunday period without soreness? yes.... it's very possible.

Couple things: Steve Streater had a high school record of 23-1 one season in North Carolina..... That meant he pitched two full games a week. He as a pitcher, so he pitched. Year - 1977.

Mike Marshall pitched in the majors. In one year, he had 106 appearances. He pitched 208 innings, so in his outings, they weren't 1 inning affairs. When you throw in warm-ups and pitches between innings, he was averaging about 50-60 game pitches per day. At one point, he accomplished this for 13 consecutive days.

The muscles in your arm are surrounded by a membrane called the fascia. On exertion, the fascia fills with blood, supplying the muscle the needed oxygen and nutrients. The better conditioned you are, the less the fascia fills with blood. Soreness is related to 2 events. Blood still occupying the fascia (the arm is a little swollen) and lactic acid. Running poles after a game will remove the lactic acid. The draining of the fascia depends on conditioning and the throwing routine that you are on. The heavier the routine, the more usual the exertion, the less filling.

Please stop challenging the honesty of a valued member of this board. He has much more credibility at this point than you do.

 

look, bball....there is no need to educate me with any baseball info...really.

as for credibility, suit yourself. I just gave an opinion that Tom House is a clown (and he is), and I got an argument that it is possible for a 17 year old to pitch 13 innings in 2 days and not be sore. If you guys believe that....have at it. Just because I don't like clubball, don't take your anger out in other threads.

 

yep you are right, I agree on Streater, but its called "three days rest".....not "one"

as for Mike Marshall, seriously, I was a professional reliever and an all star at it in 96, so I really don't need your breakdown as to how a reliever warms up.

 

lets call a truce on this whole thing before it gets ugly. I don't believe you can throw 13 innings in two days and not be sore. I have alot of experience with myself and hundreds of other college and professional players, and have never seen this to be the case. ever. You guys think its possible. You are entitled to believe that. everyone here cares about local ball, so lets just drop it, and agree to disagree.