3A West game 2 - East Rowan 17 South Point 2

This is from another thread, about how Ledford's ace pitched 7 innings last night on just 2 days rest to beat East Rutherford and keep their season alive.

Livengood, a senior right-hander, survived short rest, East Rutherford's bats and his own shaky defense to keep Ledford alive with a 5-3 win over the Cavaliers in Game 2 of the best-of-three semifinal series.

A day after a four-error disaster led to a 7-2 loss, Ledford wasn't much better with its season on the line. But Livengood, the team's undefeated ace, took up the slack by controlling the Cavaliers for seven innings on six hits.

"We had a big-time gutsy performance out of Livengood," Ledford coach Chris Adams said. "The kid just threw Tuesday and came back and gave us seven great innings, and if we make a couple of plays behind him he doesn't have to throw as much as he had to."

Livengood threw 114 pitches, but it would have been quite a few less if his teammates hadn't committed three errors and allowed a sure fly ball out to fall untouched for a double.

They won the game, and his arm didn't fall off...

 

Obviously there are many examples at little league parks everyday where coaches are teaching 10 year olds to throw curveballs, and HS coaches are pitching kids to death,,, but that doesn't make it right.

As for the Alex White case, I know for a fact that the UNC coaches did not like him throwing so much his final HS and legion season.

A kid's arm may not fall off tomorrow by throwing him too much, but there are many examples where kids DO develop arm problems later when they were pitched a lot.

I don't have a dog in this fight, so thats the last I'll say about it. Good Luck to both teams.

 

High school coaches must be worried about the moment. You can't hold a kid back and hurt your team's chances just because there may be a 0.0001% chance that pitching him those extra 2 innings will injure him.

This is the last week of the season. You've got all summer to rest that arm, but you've got a lifetime to think about regretting the coach's decision to not give the ball to his ace pitcher in an elimination game.

Alex White pitched 10 innings on that saturday in the state championship series in 2006, 7 in game 2 and 3 in the nightcap in game 3. Those 10 innings DID NOT injure him, and have no effect on his success or failure in the future. What those 10 innings did do, was help DH Conley win a state championship. Something those kids on that team will remember for a lifetime.

 

0.0001% chance???

Wait a couple more days, get that percentage all the way down to zero, then we'll agree.

 

Thank God he is not a coach.

 

I will agree to this. Every kid that pitches is different. Robert Woodard could probably throw 150 pitches in a game and come back the next day to throw a few. But it has nothing to do with makeup (mental) or challenging a pitcher to throw. Some can come back quickly, others can't.

But what most people don't understand is that nearly all pitchers have sore arms after a complete game. They are used to it. But there's a difference between sore and pain and most HS pitchers can't differentiate. So when a coach asks him "Are you alright? Can you pitch?"...nearly every time he is going to say yes because the arm soreness is an old acquaintance. It's where that soreness is located that is important. Front of the shoulder, back of the shoulder, side of the shoulder, forearm, inside elbow, outside elbow, bicep...some of each area or all of them.

 

There's never a zero percent chance of an injury no matter how many days rest you're pitching on.

 

I'm not trying to sound like the bad guy here or make it seem like I'm promoting coaches who pitch kids when it's unsafe.

As Braves said, some kids are capable of throwing on short rest. Justin Livengood of Ledford, Alex White and Spencer Fagan of DH Conley, Ryan Arrowood of RS Central, Trevor Mullins of Ragsdale, and many others. I wouldn't condone this in regular season play but when playoff time rolls around and it's for all the marbles, I'm all for giving your ace the ball if he's feeling up to it.

Certainly, you set limitations for him if you have to - pitch count, # of innings, or whatever - but you still get what you can out of him. It also needs to be a situation where this kid is CLEARLY your best pitcher. If he's your ace but you have another kid who is nearly as good, then sure, pitch the kid who's rested (Like East Rowan for example. Corbin Shive is an absolute stud and pitched game 1, but they also have another pitcher of Justin Roland's calliber who is more rested and should throw tonight in game 3).

But if one kid is your bonafide ace and DEFINITELY gives your team the best chance of winning (like the kid at South Point), I just think you've got to throw him if he feels okay. Too much work goes in to a baseball season in the offseason, preseason, regular season and postseason to just throw some kid out there who's almost surely going to lose. I'm an old school guy, you gotta ride your horse.

 

gotta say...

state championship '06. south caldwell vs scottland. bumgarner pitches game 1 to win 12-1 +/-. Messer pitched game 2 (first game of a double header) to lose 1-0. Bumgarner's pitch count was relatively low in game 1. coach decided to pitch bumgarner in game 3. I have to say I didn't agree with this choice because scottland put the ball in play ALOT in game 1, plus we had our #3 starter justin poovey (university of florida) ready to go for game 3. I was still optimistic though. In the end scottland roughed up bumgarner for about 7 runs and south caldwell only managed to plate 4 I think. My point is if you bring your best starter out on short rest or no rest he's probably not going to have his best stuff like a rested pitcher would. I wouldn't risk the injury for a championship that you could lose anyway.

 

And NCBaseballfan, obviously Madison didn't have his best stuff on short rest, many don't.

Pasttime, my zero chance injury comment was being sarcastic, we obviously disagree, but no problem, I said in my very first comment that there are those out there who do "debatable" things everyday in that quest to win "today". Good Luck tonight.