Another "you make the call"

saw this on a LL softball championship game on TV; I think it was 14U.

runners on 2nd & 3rd, 1 out. grounder hit to SS, who throws to 1st on a close play but ump at 1st base signals the batter-runner OUT. Then the 1st baseman throws home in attempt to cut off runner going from 3rd to home, but this runner is called safe at home.
the batter-runner does not see the OUT call at 1st base and continues running to 2nd base. The catcher then throws to 2nd base in attempt to get the runner out (again) going to 2nd (although this runner was ruled out already at 1st). The UMP at 2nd base, who apparently did not see the OUT call by other ump at 1st base, calls this runner OUT again. the runner that was at 2nd base originally scores from 2nd base.

how would you rule this?

 

...I say that the kid who went from 2nd to home to score is out. Why? Well we had a play like this in Va. the batter struck out with a runner on 1st and less than 2 outs, yep, catcher dropped the ball and the batter/runner ran to 1st, ....1. with less than 2 outs theres no chance to K and then run to 1st, ok, we all get that.

So, as the kid...batter/runner goes to 1st the catcher who dropped the last strike threw the ball to first, it hit the batter/runner and caromed out to RF. The original 1st base runner kept moving around the bases. The batter/runner, who we all know had no business in the play kept running also.

Arguement went like this.

offense team said the kid at 1st should be considered as a base stealer and the catcher should know better.

Defense team called for interference/obstruction.

The UIC ruled that the batter/runner was in play when she had no right to be and the kid who was at 1st was also called out.

Moral of the story is many times we see kids who strike out take off to 1st base, I guess as a reminder training tool by the coach to teach the dropped 3rd strike rule but by doing that it can bite you in the butt.

Fish

 

It may be considered interference for a runner to continue to run the bases once she is out for the purposes of drawing a throw. There is a specific exception to this (which I'll get to in a later reply), and the umpire would have to believe that the runner knew she'd been called out to call interference here.

 

As I said in my previous reply, there is a specific exception to the "running the bases when out may be interference" rule, which is that it "does not apply to the batter-runner running on the dropped third strike rule." While some try to split hairs and say this only applies when the runner isn't out (because there is no one on 1B or there are two outs already), that doesn't hold water (because the batter-runner IS NOT OUT yet). So, just running to 1B when out on a dropped third strike with a runner on 1B with less than two outs is not, by itself, interference. However, it starts getting interesting when the batter then gets hit by a throw to first.

I can tell you of two major camps in the umpire community about this situation. The first is that ASA requires that there must be a play for it to be interference. Unless the runner from 1B was diving back to 1B, then there was no play at 1B (i.e. the batter is out and can't be put out again so, the retired batter didn't interfere with a viable play and gets a pass.

The other camp says that the retired batter got in the way of the throw and is guillty of interference, even though there was no play there.

I haven't seen an official case-book play that covers this for any rules set (course, I don't have most of them), so it appears that you'll find out what the call will be only after the dirt settles.

 

here's what was called

The batter-runner, after originally being called out at first base, was called for interference when she ran to 2nd. The first run that crossed the plate was upheld as a run scored. The 2nd runner that crossed home plate had that run disallowed & was sent back to 3rd base.

a question that I had was, assuming the 2nd base ump did not see the OUT call at first base and hence he called the play at 2nd. What IF the ump had seen the first base OUT call, what would have been his proper "call" at 2nd base; just stand there and make no call or gesture??

 

The second runner could have been called out.

As interference is an immediate dead ball, I would expect him to put his hands up, call "Dead Ball" and probably go have a chat with his partner before calling the other runner out. I'm sure some umpires would have to be "encouraged" by the defensive coach to call the interference.

 

....Ihear ya JMac!
You're correct for the most part of the batter/runner dropped 3rd strike gig...ie, no play no foul or interference.

I see you working hard on the rules and other TBR interesting stuff Pal, and I'm stepping up to the plate to thank you for your opinion and smarts.

Nice posts.

Fishpappy