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Actually, plus +2 (IMHO)

I also agree on the curveball. Hold off on it until age 15, minimum.
We track our use of it pretty well.
In the average 80-85 pitch outing, we are usually 55-60 FB, 10-15 CU, and less CB than CU.
We had a kid throw a 78 pitch playoff game last season (maybe 2-3 hitter) and something like 72-74 pitches were FB. It can be done...

All that said, I was looking at a link to Perfect Game the other night - and I could be mistaken - but I thought it had player write-ups of 14 year-olds with commentary on pitches in their arsenal, including rating their breaking balls. That was "PG". Aren't they supposed to be the kind of folks that are "higher level" and should "know better"? (Not sure I just phrased that correctly, but I think you get the point.)

Look, though I restate that 100+ pitch outings is not my way of operating, you can't have it both ways - critical of HS coaches who "aren't taking care of the kids" and praising systems like PG and/or showcase/training facilities that have kids pitching 10 months a year and rating breaking balls at age 14. Well, actually you can have it both ways... but I think that's called being hypocritical.

As always, love you all, and enjoying the commentary.

 

A pretty definitive source. But I think you need to look at the holistic picture with a player. His total workload at any age. Throwing is a good thing.

Is he Max effort throwing alot?
Is it off a slope?
Is he throwing extra 'pens? (At a facility or at home)
Does he play for multiple teams? (some kids and parents sneak in stuff)
Warming up to throw, or throwing to warm up?
Doing any exercises for arm and scap health?
Did he build up a base of Strength?
Adequate rest periods, rest between 'pens?

I'm not saying that coaches don't care. Or that facility pros don't care. I think they all do but don't always have the info they need. Or get side tracked and forget.

For instance, a juco pitcher called me last January. Said his hand tingle after a long 'pen. I thought ulnar nerve. he traced back activities. He did a heavy bench press and lift the day before with the team. Another time he called in mid season, "I can't throw it past anybody." My pitch count went way up to 145. Velo dropped. Realized his coach had been doubling up on infield practice on Thursday and Friday before his Saturday start. I said "stop that". Talk to your coach and put the fielded balls in a bucket. Practice your middle infield flips and turns without throwing. He talked to the coach and his velo returned. And he probably was able to take more ground balls.

Coaches and instructors and parents (and doctors/therapists) need to work in concert. And misteps can happen for any number of reasons. At any level.

 

Two excellent points indeed.

 

Pitch Count

Each time I log in and read this forum, I am blown away at the high level of discussion. Great job.

Below is an excerpt from a post I made a while back. Thought it may fit in this discussion...

Pitch Counts…

I think the LL guidelines are a good attempt overall. However, with the physical maturation variance among adolescents I don't personally think all 12 year olds are the same just as all 9, 10, 11 year olds are the same. A 12 year old throwing 30 pitches with suboptimal mechanics may be worse than a 12 year old throwing 60 with good mechanics. Therefore, putting a number limit isn't the answer in my opinion. To borrow a phrase from a good friend and mentor of mine... "where you fail is where you start". That simply means, a pitcher's pitch count limit should be where he first begins to a) lose velocity, b) lose command, c) verbally reports fatigue, d) mechanics begin to change. So where his pitching performance begins to fail (change) is where his pitch count limit should be set for future outings.

Conditioning through purposeful bullpens is how to increase pitch count endurance in my opinion.

The above information doesn't solely apply to Little League. It can be used at all levels.


Thanks for allowing me to be a part of this forum.

 

Tommy John

Found this article earlier today...

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/7...s-underlying-biomechanical-flaw-espn-magazine

 

Read that article yesterday and sent it to several friends and my son's coach - a lot of good information in their.