Hitting or speed?

I was visiting the world famous High School Baseball Web and ran across the linked discussion about which is more important, hitting or speed & arm strength? Some good discussion in there.

I personally have always heard, from the scouts that I have talked to, that On Base Percentage is the first tool that they look for in everyday players - no matter the age. Then if the two players are equal in that area, they go to the next tool, speed or arm strength, depending on position. Plus you set your lineup with the highest OBP up front so as to maximize your offensive potential, generally putting your faster players at the front, if the OBS is relatively equal.

What are your opinions?

http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=5316041581&f=6616002781&m=746104295

 

(In my humble opinion)....

For a position player, you have to hit.... period...

The speed and/or arm strength becomes a luxury, since the true 5-tool player is very rare. There is an old saying that "good glove men are a dime a dozen". If you have to rate the tools (position players only) then I believe that their importance is:

1. Hit for average
2. Hit for power
3. Fielding
4. Speed
5. Arm strength

Here is my reasoning:

5. Arm strength is a distant 5th. If you have a weak-armed player with the other tools intact, you can always place him at 2B or in LF where the arm strength isn't as much of an issue.

4. Speed. A lot of emphasis is placed on speed but it's only as valuable as the other tools that go along with it. In the OF, you have to be able to read the ball off the bat (good fielding ability) in order to know WHERE to run. On offense, the ability to read pitchers and get a good jump makes up for a lack of raw speed. Speed can help manufacture runs, but only if the speed is getting on base.

3. Fielding. If you can't field, then you can DH, but that's about it! It really limits a coaches flexibility in building a line-up. That's why it's more important than speed.

2. Hit for Power. Last time I checked, outscoring the opposition was still the object of the game. These are the run producers of the team.

1. Hit for Average. It doesn't help to have power guys in the lineup unless they have people to drive in. These are the run scorers. Scoring runs on offense is still the object of the game.

- - - - - - - -

On defense, your primary defensive position is pitcher !!! He will set the tone for the rest of the team. A good pitcher needs a decent defense, an average pitcher needs an outstanding defense. To build a contender, you need good pitching, decent to above average defense and hitting.

JH Rose is always a contender for the state championship. The main reason is that they have an outstanding hitting program. Their pitching is good (not great) and the defense is very good (not great). The hitting is great.

 

Just a few thoughts. I guess this discussion may depend a bit on what level player we're talking about. What I've heard from most of the pro guys is "Can he run and can he throw? Everything else can be taught".

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A second baseman turning a double play on a feed from the shortstop needs as much if not more arm strength than the shortstop because in most instances he makes the throw using none of the lower half of his body with no footwork involved. You can't hide a weak arm at second. I would prefer my pitcher get more ground balls than fly balls. If so, we've got to be able to throw guys out after the ball is fielded.

I agree. There's only room for one DH in the line-up. I'd say you've got a better chance to play if you can catch and throw.

I saw Chad Durham (Ray's younger brother) play in high school. His speed down the base line created throwing mistakes across the diamond by fielders knowing they had to hurry. To me, speed is the #1 thing that would help you get on base, assuming you put the ball in play.

You only need to score one to win if you pitch well and play good defense. If young players are taught that more emphasis should be on their ability to hit and fielding is on down the list, should major league baseball do away with the Gold Glove award?

To me, I'd place the fielding, arm strength and speed (not necessarily in that order) above the abiliity to hit for power and average. It sorta depends on what type players you have to choose from and whether it's your style to play small ball (bunt, hit & run, steal bases, etc) or play long ball when it comes to putting your team together. This should make for an intersting thread.

 

Thoughts!

In my humble opinion as well I agree with the second to last post in that it is the "level" who decides as well as the neeeeds of that level and or organization! I DO know this from talking to several former and current major leaguers...the most impressive if not important attribute a player brings in his portfolio is the ABILITY TO CONSISTENTLY drive in runs i.e. produce them whether it is with power and or average that makes him profitable and marketable!?!?... :xyzthumbs :huh: Thoughts?

 

The son

What i think is most important on a diamond that is starting to come around in the pros is not fielding, not throwing, not hitting or anything else. Its the way you play the game and respect the game. If you look at the Angels you see 4 or 5 guys that love to play the game. Most of them have become every day players. They have one guy that loves to play the game so much that he has 4 different gloves and has played almost every position this year. He loves to be on the field and gets the job done. He runs hard every play. What more could you ask for. Thats why some many players are coming in from other countries. They love the game so much. They play every day on bad fields. I have played on these fields and have come to respect the players. Some of the American players seem to take it for granted and their spots are being taken by others. They do anything to make it to America (granted a arm that throws 90+ comes with it. When I was down there scouts looked at what they did on the off days to make them get better. Scouts come into hitting facilities to see how people work in the off season. They want to see if you are worth that $500,000 signing bonus. They know if they give the job to someone from the Dem. Republic they will work hard to stay in the game.

So for me, I think its all about the way you play the game. With tools that can get the job done at that level.

 

In bringing up the discussion, I was originally assuming that the “level” we would discuss, for position players, would be at least HS or college since this is a preps board and the original thought came from the HSBW. However, it can certainly be expanded to include pros or whatever level desired.

Also, the observation that the “type” of team you put together is IMHO very important. If you bunt, hit/run and primarily play small ball the ability to hit would, in my opinion, be diminished somewhat; however the ability to put the ball in play, get on base, and minimize strikeouts would be expanded. Here I would think On Base Percentage Including Errors would be a high priority in determining your offensive lineup.

On the other hand if you want to play long ball, On Base Percentage or hitting for average is the measuring stick with a strong hitter, preferably that doesn’t strike out much, inserted in for good measure.

For either type of game you play, I believe the old saying that “if you cann’t get on base, you cann’t score” is true.

Sugarjet made some good points that cann’t be overemphasized; you have to love and respect the game and practice and play hard. Too many young players don’t grasp this for whatever reason and bring distractions in the dugout. This not only hurts themselves but hurts the team.

Now back to hitting vs. speed and/or strong arm.

quote:
You only need to score one to win if you pitch well and play good defense. If young players are taught that more emphasis should be on their ability to hit and fielding is on down the list, should major league baseball do away with the Gold Glove award?

While I don’t believe the pros should do away with the gold glove and I do believe this statement to be true in theory, and was true in the pros back in the ‘60s/early 70s, I just don’t see it happening much today. Even at Perfect Games WWBA games using wood bats and with some of the best young players in the US participating, you didn’t see many 1-0 games. As a guess, I would say the winning teams averaged about 6-7 runs a game. Most HS games have multiple runs scored, by both teams. Maybe it’s the ball, maybe the bats, over play, diluted pitching, lack of dedication, or whatever but I just feel you have to go out trying to score as many runs as possible and the best way to do that is get on base.

quote:
4. Speed. A lot of emphasis is placed on speed but it's only as valuable as the other tools that go along with it. In the OF, you have to be able to read the ball off the bat (good fielding ability) in order to know WHERE to run. On offense, the ability to read pitchers and get a good jump makes up for a lack of raw speed. Speed can help manufacture runs, but only if the speed is getting on base.

I agree wholeheartedly with this statement, I have seen numerous “fast” players not make a play or be thrown out stealing a base because of a late read. (Fast players also have to field, I would personally give up a little range for fewer errors). On the counter side, I have seen numerous “slow” players make great plays simply because they understood the game and made adjustments to aid in getting a jump on the ball. One of the best centerfields I saw play this season only had decent, not great speed, but he ran down everything. It helped that he broke to the ball almost before the batter had finished his swing. Therefore, I have always considered speed a plus but secondary to OBP or hitting. If a player has a high OBP and has speed, fantastic. If not, his speed doesn’t help sitting on the bench particularly if he is followed in the lineup with another “burner” or “power hitter” with a low OBP or high strikeout ratio.

As for arm strength, I believe it is another tool. This is one that can be improved upon with hard work on mechanics and a lot of throwing. It can also be hidden. The baseball field is diverse enough to put a weaker arm in a place that it won’t hurt you, very often. At least IMHO, it won't hurt enough to make up for not getting on base if you cann't hit.

Based on this, I believe that The “O” was right, when discussing position players, when he stated “the most impressive if not important attribute a player brings in his portfolio is the ABILITY TO CONSISTENTLY drive in runs i.e. produce them whether it is with power and or average that makes him profitable and marketable.”

Now of course you have to temper this somewhat as you cann’t have 9 HS players on the field that are all 6’2” 215 lbs, run a 7.4 60yd and hit .425 with 12 homers. Or can you? Maybe that is good for another discussion?

 

You must be thinking of North Meck

I love this discussion...great points all around

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Braves:
You must be thinking of North Meck



Now don't forget the three (3) pitchers that NM has that all throw 90+ with a COMBINED ERA of 0.001 :notworthy

 

Outstanding thoughts!

from the Vaughn...I like him but not a Sox fans! with all that has been sad and suggested give me NINE and only NINE "nasty" scrappy players who want to play and learn fight to the end and WE WILL win! Sports in general have suffered because of a variety of reasons!? At all level! Look at the US basketball team men's for example. Couple other thoughts:
1. prefer a great reader off the bat consequently good jump defensively than a clueless speedster!
2. prefer "great" bunter than a power hitter who K's 1000 times!
3. prefer a battler on the hill with less than impressive stats vs. the ALL WORLD pitcher who complains and blames all on everyone else!
4. prefer a "slow" baserunner with GREAT instincts than a clueless speedster!
5. Lefties are like diamonds get em teach em and have them contribute in all phases of the game!
6. prefer a sub par hitter who manages to get on base than a better average hitter who doesn't consistently manage to get on base somehow!
7. prefer an AVERAGE arm anywhere on the diamond who is 99.9% accurate every throw vs. a flamethrower who clears the stands from every direction more times than not from errant throws!
8. prefer and average catcher vs. a highly gifted/skilled one who does EVERYTHING right all the time vs. some of the time!

all IMHO and assuredly could go on and on