Legion Ball

I would like an opinion on Legion ball. Is it really worth the daily comittment playing every day? Is a player better off playing on a traveling team? Will a player get noticed playing Legion? Some people say Legion ball is dying. Is this true?

 

To a degree, it depends on WHERE you would play Legion ball.... in some areas it's better than others. I'm sure we are going to get LOTS of opinions on this topic (as it comes up every year).

We did talk to a college recruiter about this very topic and this is what HE had to say about Legion versus Showcase.

"The summer showcases and large tournaments are now the way to go for me. I hate saying it because I love American Legion baseball and in some areas of North Carolina it is still a big deal, but for my time and money, one game in a night down a lonely two-lane road doesn’t make much sense anymore. I know that is not a popular answer to many but it’s our reality now. If I do my homework correctly, I can see hundreds of players perform several times each in a weekend without having to leave the grandstand. Sometimes it’s more productive to work smarter and cheaper!"

There has been a growth in "Showcase" teams over the past 2 years beyond the ability to support such numbers. I'm not speaking financially, I'm speaking of the number of true college material players. The successful showcase teams (that place a large number of players in colleges) are fairly rare still. People still confuse the purpose of Showcase teams.

The return of college freshmen back to the local legion teams has also hurt the recruiting efforts from legion. In some areas, most of the starters for a particular team will be either returning college freshmen or committed graduated HS seniors. What interest would it be for a college to go scout that team?

I believe that there will be a replacement for the current "Showcase" format that is so popular now. Historically successful programs will band together (probably not more than 2/state) and form Wood Bat summer conferences. "Team Virginia", "Team South Carolina", "Team North Carolina", etc etc will face each other in a round-robin event ... maybe in Columbia ... the next week the 4-6 teams will play in Greensboro, the following week, the traveling road show will be in Richmond ... then Knoxville.

This kind of format would be popular with the D1's and with the pro's. Inclusion in the league would have to be by invite only, or some such method to control diluting the talent pool. It wouldn't make money (compared to what the Diamond Devils can do down in Charleston, bringing in 30+ teams with over half being "marginal" or younger teams wanting experience/games.

It could only be done with Corporate Sponsorship.

 

I have been around and coached a little of all of this baseball we are talking about high school, american legion, showcase, aau, usssa, my opinion is american legion is at the top of the class you play 9 innings of national league rules you are playing the best players in a given area, you will play in front of larger crowds than you will playing the other kind of baseball.I also beleive the coaching is alot better in legion than the other. There are several college coaches across the state that coach American Legion Baseball. My opinion legion is for the dedicated baseball player because it does take up your summer if you want to play this kind of baseball.Look back the last 5 or so years and look at the players from North Carolina that are playing profesional or D1 college and you will find that most played American Legion baseball.

Now there are alot of people will down American Legion baseball because of the following reasons 1. more players playing from a given High school
2. the 19 year old rule which i think they should do away with.
3. the typical my son played all year on the high school team and doesn't play on the legion team.(has to earn position) 4. playing several nights in a row.
5. not enough scouts at games.

Now let's look at showcase baseball
You have to travel across the state to be on a team that will cost you alot of money to play (pay to play) which weeds out several good baseball players because they can not afford the cost, alot of teams are coached by non baseball men (more parents involved), The cost does not include your motel stays and eats when you travel across the country to play in these so called high profile tournaments.

Now as far as what the scout said i agree and disagree sure it is more efficent to scout more players at 1 site than travel to legion games to watch players but is he really watching the best players. If he is doing his job he will beat the bushes to find talent instead of waiting on it to come to him or he will be looking for another job.

 

Homerun ...

A lot of what you say has validity. There are definitely more teams out there pretending to be "showcase" teams that are basically just "daddy ball" and not real "showcase" teams. If the coach of a summer team trying to recruit you doesn't have the credentials, run away as fast as you can.

That being said, there are a FEW true showcase teams in the state. If you take a look at the D1 signings so far in NC, there have been 51 players that have committed to playing D1 ball. Of the 51, 30 of them played a couple of select showcase teams. NC Cubs, Impact, On Deck and the Diamond Devils.

These teams span the state pretty well and there is still room for another up in the Asheville region. There are smaller teams that do a very good job. The Anglers, Megastars and a few others have excellent coaching and the coaches have established contacts with the NC Colleges, which is essential. The Anglers operate only in the fall and is comprised (mostly) of summer legion players.

Many, many others aren't worth the time/money. The instruction is weak, training is missing (taking ground-balls in a practice and swinging away in a batting cage isn't training), the coaches aren't experienced at the college or professional level and the coaches don't have contacts established with area colleges/universities NOR the credibility to be believed by them. Ask for numbers (how many players on last year's team are now playing at a college or university? How many seniors did you have ... how about the year before??) I can attest for On Deck ... Over the past 3 years, they have placed 28 players in colleges, universities or Juco's including this year's class, and I expect that there will be at least 4 more signings this spring. 32 players placed in college over a 3 year period is a pretty high number.

Of the rest of the players, all but 8 of them played on other showcase teams (some daddy ball, some just smaller organizations) that I recognize or in the GRFBL. Some of the players in the GRFBL also played some Legion .... That's great !!!!

I would (personally) prefer that all of the best players play 1 season of legion ball ... the summer right after they graduate from High School.

Saying that a scout must beat the bushes is fine, calling a scout lazy for not driving up that two-lane road isn't going to cut it. Travel budgets for college recruiting have been slashed by most institutions. Since only 20%-25% of all college baseball programs operate in the black, get used to it... it's a fact of life.

Bottom line: Play for the BEST TEAM in your area !!!! If it's Legion, that's GREAT !!!, If it's not, fine also. In some areas of the state, Legion ball is terrible. The teams are basically composed of non-starters in high school and JV players. Legion COULD have fixed this competition situation years ago, but instead they made a mistake. Instead of going to the 19 year old rule, they could have had rotating "baseball weekends". For example, bring in 3 teams to Shelby on a Saturday morning and each team plays 2 games. You end up with a day full of baseball, full use of the bench, a big day that could draw a fine crowd to feed the coffers and an attractive product for college coaches to come watch. The following weekend, the round-robin would be at one of the other teams venues ... the money moves around just fine that way. Play single games on weekdays.

Finally: I wish Legion well and it's still going to be around for a long time. The 19 year old rule has and will continue to hurt recruiting credibility for legion. The game has changed. Recruiting has changed. Legion needs to see what modifications it needs to take to retain it's top spot, BUT ... the top players in the nation are now doing WWBA instead of Legion ball. On Baseball America's list of the Top-100 players in the Nation, a full 80% of them participated in the WWBA Summer Nationals and/or WWBA World Championships. Since the summer nationals are in Atlanta and the World Championships are in Florida, most of the missing players were from the West Coast.

 

This does seem to be an ongoing debate. I have been around legion ball all my life with my dad being a coach in VA for 19 years, and I am getting ready to start my 6th season as a legion baseball head coach. I understand some of the points about showcase baseball. I also agree that the 19 year old rule needs to go, and my sources say at the end of the upcoming season that the national board is going to take care of that. With all of that being said, in the last 5 years I have placed 20 players in college baseball and 3 in pro ball. None of which played summer showcases. They did attend showcases in the fall and winter which I strongly encourage. I think you guys are failing to see some of the vital parts of legion ball. Legion ball is not always about exposure. For me it has been more about developing young men and teaching them the right way to play the game. Respect for the game, along with the little fine details. Legion ball is more like college baseball than anything else out there as far as the format. 9 innings, 5-6 nights a week, traveling, being together 24-7, and most importantly competing for playing time. I am not afraid to admit that I am the coach in Burlington and I am proud of our program and the young men that it has produced. I think you could talk to a lot of my boys and parents and they could tell you what our program has done for them beyond baseball. That is really what it is all about when it comes down to it. We give them exposure, but then teach them how to handle the rewards of that. It's funny to me how I was able to play college baseball without ever playing on a showcase team. I am all for showcases and the organizations that put them on. The suggestion of weekend events in legion ball is a great idea, but you need to understand that a lot of legion programs do not have a lot of money. It cost us $12,000 last summer to run our program, all of which was raised. It costs money to travel together as a team, feed the boys, and provide the things that we need to be successful. I think both programs have merit, but I am proud of what legion stands for and what it does for young men.

 

I really think the bottom line is play on the best possible team you can in your area ...... I don't really care about who it's affiliated with.

Play with the best and against the best..... In some areas it will be Legion, in others, it won't.

 

Elonhokie ,great point i think we are on the same page. Area 3 legion baseball has some very good programs that are run very professionaly the only down side i see now is the fact that some of these aau daddy's and showcase parents are trying to infiltrate legion baseball by trying to form there own legion or extended high school teams which in turn will water down the competition, and wreck some really good teams. I know most of the legion teams in area 3 have sent alot of players to colleges and the pros just in the last year alone, so i do not see how people can down legion baseball.
Just go to the legion state tournament and see the crowds ,great players and scouts. Go to the state aau or usssa tournament and there is no comparison. Legion is just a step above.

 

As many on this board can tell you, this is one of my favorite yearly topics on this board. I agree that you should play the best baseball you can and I will stand on my soapbox and tell everyone within earshot that Legion baseball in western North Carolina cannot be beat.

Reason 1: Rivalries. I have lived in Caldwell County my whole life and I can only describe it as the ACC of Legion Baseball. Shelby, Caldwell, Cherryville have a hate for each other unmatched, but also have a respect for what each have accomplished unmatched. Add to that the crowds these games have. Most of the traveling teams/AAU/USSSA teams have crowds consisting of parents and maybe a girlfriend but in this area there are literally thousands that hang on every pitch.

Which moves me to Reason 2: Coverage. Caldwell County games are on WJRI radio. Cherryville's and Shelby's games are on stations in their area. Sports page headlines in these areas are nothing but Legion come summertime. Legion players are almost overnight celebrities in towns. I can't overstate the point to which people in this area follow these kids playing baseball. There’s elderly people around here that don't come out of their houses unless its to MS Deal stadium in Granite Falls.

Reason 3: Scheduling. I for one would much rather playing in a 7pm game nightly than playing in the 8am Saturday morning in a tournament. In my many years of legion baseball, I have seen ONE forfeit due to lack of players and that team was scrapped the end of that year. I have seen multiple games in AAU tournaments scrapped for lack of participation.

Reason 4: NO ONE should have to pay to play baseball. In the last 4 years, Caldwell County has played in Alabama, Florida, and Jacksonville, NC so its players can have some away time. No player was forced to pay a dime. Shelby went to Alabama this year and I would almost bet they didn't pay a dime either.

Also I would like to counter a few arguments as well. For the "no one scouts legion games", tell that to Chad Flack or Tyler Trice or Brock Thronburg or Chris Mason or Ralph Roberts....and I can go on and on with players that played legion and played in some of these rivalries and in front of these crowds and have been drafted and got the opportunity to play Division 1 baseball for great schools and got scholarships to do so. Also with Caldwell playing in the state tournament in Shelby, I saw first hand all the speed guns and stopwatches and clipboards from some pretty damn programs in college baseball.

So, as someone who has seen alot of baseball in this area, please take my word that Legion Baseball has faults, but is still the best brand going.

 

Ok guys, some of you knew that topics like this would bring me back out of the woodwork. First of all, let me just say a big hello to NCBBALLFAN, Elonhokie, Downsouth and Homerun too. Its good to hear from you again.

As for this debate, of course I'm a big Kannapolis legion supporter so "DUH" wonder which way I support? But with that said, I have talked with many college coaches and wholeheartedly agree with NCBBALLFAN 100% in his assessment of showcase ball. Yes Showcase ball has some very good programs (Impact is topnotch), but then there's some programs which are just daddyball too, so a player must be careful to pick whats best for him. But in Showcase ball, its simply more convenient for recruiters because you have all these teams and players at one location for one weekend. It makes sense for recruiters, plain and simple. Thus its a good avenue for special players to take if they want to be exposed to college recruiters. Yes its generally expensive for the average players and I happen to know several players that have NOT played showcase ball simply because of the expense involved too. Afterall legion ball in Kannapolis costs our players "zero". The only thing our players have to do is wash their uniforms and just be there on time. No expense to them whatsoever. Someone earlier mentioned that it costs $12,000 to operate a legion team, and this money generally comes from local businesses.

Ok, let me toot Legion ball a bit more, since the initial question "was legion ball dying?" That answer is a resounding "NO". Legion ball is alive and well. I think the legion leaders have decided that the 19-year old rule was a mistake, it will be gone after 2005. Otherwise, in legion ball you have players from different high school teams coming together (basically all-star teams) and playing "FOR THEIR COMMUNITY". It brings players together who have always played against each other in high school, it also brings different families together too. Its a lot of fun, because its your COMMUNITY your playing for. Folks in Kannapolis are proud to say that our legion team is the "2-time defending Area III champions". Everywhere you go, people ask what does the legion team look like for next year? ....who's coming back? .... who are we losing? ...etc.etc...

Sorry NCBBALLFAN, but Kannapolis simply has not played any legion teams in the last 2 years that resembled anything close to a JV team. Yes there are a couple weaker teams in Area III, but I wholeheartedly agree that for the most part the Kannapolis legion team faces a "top quality pitcher" every single night. For the last 2 years, we have been facing everyone's aces. We've faced Patrick Adams, we've seen Dan Poindexter, we've seen them all. The competition level in legion ball is simply very good. If anyone has any questions about legion ball, I simply invite you to come watch Kannapolis play Rowan County next summer,,, or South Rowan,,, or Mocksville. Huge crowds, great baseball, and lots of fireworks will be at those games, I promise. And btw, college scouts will be there too.

I will conclude by saying that individuals must simply decide whats best for THEM individually when deciding between showcase and legion baseball. But the reason I chimed in, is because legion baseball is certainly not dying. Its alive and well.

Btw Downsouth, we need to continue the Kannapolis/Caldwell County regular season matchups again next season. Playing you guys 3 times last year was great for both programs, and its no surprise that we finished 2nd/3rd in the state behind Garner. We have new coaches in Kannapolis but they are well-known around the baseball world, they will be getting in touch with your guys.

Elonhokie, if you want to email me and tell me who you coach, maybe we can set up some games with you guys too.

Take care guys...

 

tj21- How good was the Ktown/South Rowan series the last two years?

I think you brought up the best point of all. THEY ARE PLAYING FOR SOMETHING BIGGER THAN THEMSELVES! Not only the community, but a legitimate state championship. I've coached in USSSA and Legion and there is absolutely no comparison. The crowds, the effort, the history, everything. To answer the question about college coaches recruiting. I think you have seen a movement for college assistants to coach legion baseball. In several areas there are many assistants coaching legion. You see several smaller schools that don't have the recruiting budgets getting right in the mix. As for the bigger DI schools, don't be fooled, they do have the money to get out and go see a prospect first hand at a legion game. They also bookmark the younger players. I think the consensus opinion for 19 year olds is no they should not be able to play. I personally don't think it is a bad idea. College freshman are the hardest to place in wood bat leagues. Most of the placement is done in the fall. Before they even step foot on a college baseball field. Legion gives them an opportunity to play one more summer everyday. I think you have also seen a movement to have competitive junior legion teams now. I know that it is hard to fund them, but if they can stick then it is only beneficial for the younger players. I saw the junior legion state tournament at Catawba College this last year. It was very competiteve, and the crowds were great.

Here's my answer.... Legion in the summer and Showcase ball in the fall.