Legion Ball

Again, its in certain locales that it's growing ...

Here's an interesting question. If Legion is growing, won't it suffer the same dilution of talent that you see in the Showcase Circuit or have seen in years past in AAU????? There is still only "X" number of players out there that everyone is competing for.

 

I do agree with that to a certain extent. However "if" these new programs are capably coached, then can't the talent pool grow larger? I willstate however, that it must start a lot earlier than at the junior/senior legion level. Quality coaching of the fundamentals is needed at the younger ages to really increase the overall talent pool. I guess the jury is still out on this one...

 

That implies being sucessful in competition for the interested, committed athletes. In the past, (back in the 50's - 60's - early 70's), baseball (Legion age down to just old enough to pick up a bat) was the only game in town except for HS Football.

Now, you are competing with Soccer, Basketball, "X-Sports", Video games, Computers, 3349 television channels and a legalistic system that has eliminated the corner baseball sand-lot where kids used to learn to play. If there isn't adult supervision, the kids aren't allowed on the field, etc etc etc.

It's not any wonder that Soccer (need a round ball and an empty field) and basketball (hundreds of concrete courts .. again a round ball) have taken hold of the kids athletically.

Another aspect of this question: Believe it or not, parents DO steer little Johnny and Tiny Billy towards certain sports. Can the impact of Title IX have any bearing on the number of available players?

CoachEvans brings up the point of needing quality coaching at a younger age (when most kids are still in "Daddy Ball"). How do you meet this need in some communities??? ... in rural areas??? You're not talking pay-to-play, you're talking "pay-to-learn"?????

There are more questions left unanswered that can be answered. It's a difficult world out there that needs new assumptions –"paradigms" - requiring the identification, evaluation and reconstruction of our current assumptions and the re-evaluation of prior facts to see if they still hold true. The argument that "it was good enough for the past 75 years" doesn't hold water when everything else is changing. Change breeds change which breeds change. The current assumptions, though not universally agreed upon, have a place for both showcase and legion (and rec and AAU, etc etc etc). Looking forward, are they all wrong?? Does there need to be a complete shift to a new method, a new technique??

Where does the change originate?? Most would agree that the driving force behind any change will remain economical, but is that forced down from above or forced up from below?? Here are some of the economic forces at work.

• MLB Scouting Bureau (or combine if you're football inclined)
• Title IX
• Profitability of College Baseball
• Recruiting Budgets
• Centralized Scouting Efforts (Pro & College)
• Scouting Services (Perfect Game, Team One)
• Legion Team Cost
• Showcase Team Cost
• Private Instruction
• Group Instruction
• Youth Leagues and Departments of Recreation
• High School Athletic budget cuts

If MLB changes the way it works, is there a push-down effect? Can Colleges/Universities find a less expensive way to evaluate and see all the talent in the area? Are Scouting Services the wave of the future as a cost cutting measure or they a temporary bandaid on a cost situation out of control? Whether it's Legion or Showcase, someone is finding some bucks ... where is it coming from?? Corporate sponsorship for Showcase teams (that's happening very frequently now)???. With pressure on tax dollars, are there upcoming cuts in the budgets of departments of recreation? Some NC counties are starting to talk about "Pay-to-play" in HS??? ... is this going to set a pattern for legion also? How do you pay to educate the young player if you desire to eliminate the worst aspects of "daddy-ball"?? Is the sand-lot a dead issue in our nation??

The situation top-to-bottom must be examined and not just a single issue in absence of the other facts.

Arguing Legion vs Showcase without that examination is like arguing whether or not it's dark outside when you've fallen asleep in a closet for an unknown length of time with no watch.

 

... by the way guys, this is the best discussion we've ever had on this topic.
:xyzthumbs :xyzthumbs :xyzthumbs

 

Well i will continue to say Legion baseball is the best as long as the state commisioners will hold the standard high, legion baseball will continue to be the best baseball to play. Please don't let these new teams come in to wreck established programs because of jealous parents and high school coaches. I don't disagree with new teams forming as long as the high schools they draw from do not have legion teams they already play on, it will weaken the overall competition and yes make it more unatractive to scouts, players, fans, and sponsors.

Now as far as the best programs in area 3 i will try my best to rate the top teams and hope some of you will coment on these rankings I will base this on overall tradition, players,coaches, fans attending games, executives that run the programs. ball parks.

TOP PROGRAMS IN AREA 3
1. ROWAN COUNTY - in a class of there own one of the greatest traditions in the country every one loves to play at Newman Park. several state championships, largest fan following in the area maybe the state, several players in pro baseball, great coaching staff, excellent jr. legion program, just an allaround 1'st class program.

2. ASHEBORO- a great winning tradition, usally deep in playoffs every year, several players in college baseball. have had some in pro ball, great ball park to play in (McCrary Park), great coaches, Program has been hurt some due to Palmino baseball in the Greensboro area

3. Mocksville-another great tradition, usally goes deep in the playoffs every year ,always has 1 obstacle Rowan County can't quite beat there long time rivals in the playoffs, plays in a great ball park (Rich Park) an A1 program run 1'st class, several players in college baseball. excellent Jr. Legion program.trying to be hurt by new teams.


4.Eastern Randolph- another great tradition, always a powerhouse, great coaches several players in college baseball. Grady lawson a 1'st class man runs that program 1'st class.

5.Kannapolis- I rate in the top 5 due to there success the past few years , this program has came along ways, has had some great ball players especially pitchers, excellent coaches. hope some one can run with this program since Gene is not around.

6. Concord- The reason we put Concord on this list is because of it's past history used to have large crowds at Webb field .Swaringer, and Goins were great coaches would like to see this program get it back together again. seems like when Ken Cook left The baseball program left also.

7.Burlington- Burlington seems to be the new kids on the block, Probably the best coach in area 3 in ELON HOKIE has had some of the best talent in the state the past couple of years This program looks as if it will be strong for several years. good jr. legion program.

8. Kernersville- Have to put kernersville on the list for all of those state championships and state apperances in the 80's and 90's .program went down hill after Sparrow and Starbuck left. This was a powerhouse for several years. several players in college and pro ball. bad following.


9. King/Winston-Salem- probably should not have made this list there players have saved them. Have had several oustanding players in the past, Have carried them deep into the playoffs. executives need to get it together
worst ball park in the state.

10. South Rowan - Just because they are from baseball rich Rowan County there first 5 or so years were pathetic. Great coaching staff they try to run a 1'st class program. Have had several good players the last couple of years due to good coaching.

11. Mooresville- Whitey Meadows the 2'nd best coach in the area just doesn,t have the talent to win. have had several college and pro players. Even though they don't win fans continue to follow mooresville.

12 Mt. Airy- Great coach in Barry Hall normally a .500 ball club this club seems stable still waiting for there breakout year . need better ball park to play in. Jr. Legion team outstanding.has fair attendance.

now let's here everyone elses comments on the best programs.

 

tj.....you are right about the loss of Andrew Morgan being a huge hole to fill for South Rowan. But, as I recall, he only pitched 1 game against K-town last year in the playoffs(win) and I think your coach as more concerned about South Rowan's bats. You are also right about the South Rowan/Kannapolis playoff series' the last couple of years, it was awsume. I've been to both showcase and legion games and I have never witnessed that kind of atmosphere at a showcase event.(not to say it doesn't exist, I just haven't witnessed it) I was raised in Rowan County and like you I've loved legion ball for many years. I never played baseball let alone legion(football was my passion at the time), but I have a son that played in those 2 series' and that of course made them even more exciting. For any kid that plays HS baseball in Rowan County it is almost expected of them to play legion ball. There are some here that think to do otherwise borders on heresy. My son never played showcase ball until the fall of his junior year. He played for Freddy Suggs/Uwharrie Anglers and only then because there was no cost to us. Why am I telling you all this........because I want you and all the other posters to know how I feel personally before I say, that if I knew then what I know now, I would've steered my son more toward showcase ball instead of legion even though it worked out for him anyway. It wasn't until the inception of this board and the advise I received from guys like NC, Braves, and Prepster that I realized what steps I needed to take to help my son achieve the goal he had worked so hard for.....play D1 ball. As a father, I wasn't willing to take the risk as to whether he'd be seen enough just playing HS and legion ball so I got him involved in some showcase events. Some were expensive, some were of no expense to me at all, but the bottom line is, he was never approached by a college coach or pro scout until he began participating in these showcase events. I've never been to any of the really big showcases(i.e WWBA events)but I have been to some where there were more college coaches and pro scouts than there were parents and spectators combined. Kids tend to follow their hearts not their heads when they're in HS, including where they want to play baseball.....I say let'em, but as a parent we owe it to them to make sure they are given every opportunity to succeed. I am now convinced that for most kids some sort of "showcasing" is nearly a must and there is room for both. Someone mentioned legion in the summer and showcase in the fall. To me that's the best of both worlds, but make your plans early for the fall and do your homework. Your decisions and planning will greatly enhance your son's chances, I know mine did.

 

Need to disagree with homerun4 and the comment concerning the Mocksville team. No new team is trying to hurt the Mocksville team. The new team coming to the area is only because the demand is there and also the pool of players is talented and plentiful.

 

where is the demand at if West Forsyth was to form a new team what this would due is land lock Mocksville and Yadkin County. Now what would this do if the commisioners would let this happen you then have 4 week teams Mocksville, west Forsyth, yadkin county, mt. airy, and i feel sure king/ winston salem would be hurt. i feel the commisioners would not let this kind of growth happen. This would definetly water down the level of play i know for sure they would not let west forsyth draw from other high schools while land locking the traditional teams. This kind of stuff comes up every year across the state This is the kind of stuff that has to stop if legion baseball is going to stay on top . parents have to realize if there kids can't make the teams that are established they don't need to try to start there own teams for there boys to play this hurts the good players from playing on good teams .high school coaches need to push there kids to try to play legion and if they can't make the team then play on another summer team. This kind of stuff runs people away from legion baseball. By the way who is going to coach the team if it is granted. And if you want to beleive this or not IT WILL hurt your surounding teams.

 

WOW great discussion guys,,, but first of all let me just say that NCBBALLFAN lost me when he used the word "paradigm". :huh: But knowing NCBBALLFAN, I agree with whatever he said.

RCBBFAN, its great hearing from you. And you bring up a GREAT point for playing legion ball in the Cabarrus/Rowan County area. For years, Rowan County has set the standard locally for legion programs, top quality players, great coaching, TREMENDOUS crowds, beautiful stadium, just the best baseball atmosphere around for amatuer baseball. And because of the tradition, a baseball player in Rowan County did NOT DARE turn his head on the legion team and NOT PLAY. He would've been evicted from Rowan County by the locals. Young ballplayers just grow up in Rowan County knowing and dreaming to be on that legion team one day.

Cabarrus County has tried to keep up with Rowan over the years as Concord was a prime contender back in the 70's & 80's; however, that program has not been the same the past 5 years for whatever reason.

Kannapolis was a yearly legion powerhouse many moons ago and won 4-5 state championships way back when, but they've not had much structure in the past 40 years. Gene Benfield struggled to keep the Kannapolis legion team alive and he worked his butt off to do it. If it wasn't for Gene, there would probably not be a legion team in Kannapolis today. When Gene passed away last spring, many Kannapolis legion players will always remember what Gene did for our program.

Someone asked earlier if Kannapolis had someone to keep our program going, the answer is YES. Our program is in good hands. We just lost 2 good coaches, but we've already replaced them with 2 of the most respected high school head coaches in the state (both have recent state games experience) and both have former legion coaching experience too.

Homerun4,,,, I like your assessments of the Area III teams, but I will add Greensboro to your list because there's simply a lot of baseball talent in that Greensboro/Ragsdale area. They've been awful strong the past 2 year especially.

And yes we in Kannapolis have had some very good success the past few years and are currently the 2-time defending Area III champions. But if you go back even 3 years when Rowan Co. won the state championship in 2002 with a 38-2 record, Kannapolis still has won more ballgames than anyone the past 3 years combined. Considering we have new excited coaches coming in who know the players and know the game, and we have a lot of returners coming back which includes our top 3 pitchers, yes we feel good about 2005.

Rowan County has been a little down since 2002, but they knocked on the door in 2004 by making the area semifinals, and look for them to make some noise in 2005. Rowan is quietly building another powerhouse loaded with serious pitching.

 

It would be great to get some posters from the west involved in this discussion because Area IV teams like Caldwell County, Shelby, Cherryville and Pineville are for real. Caldwell, Shelby and Cherryville are big in legion tradition just like Rowan, and those teams (along with Pineville) will kick your tail real fast if you're not ready to play ball. They bring huge vocal crowds with them and you will hear their crowds in your sleep for days after the game is over. They play old-timey smashmouth baseball just like in the old days. Opposing players have to be mentally prepared to play those guys.

All I'm saying is that you posters who may think legion ball is dying just need to go check out any of these teams that have been mentioned. Playing most legion teams in this area is not only a very good brand of baseball, but the boys love it.