pitchers or robots?

as a former pitcher and coach i really don't like what i see happening with pitchers. during my playing career which included 3 years at d1 and 2 years in the minor leagues that i know of i never had a pitch called for me from the bench other than a pitchout.during my career as a coach which included a head d1 job and d 1 pitching coach job and a juco job i never called pitches other than pitchouts as pitchers not only me but others learned to control the tempo of the game, or do things to frustrate runners and hitters but mainly to try and get the hitter thinking about something other than hitting. we used to do things like asking the ump for a new ball, or asking the base ump to rub the ball up,or call an infilelder in to talk just when you need to catch your breath or stall a hitter by tying a shoelace. i learned to pitch and use my mind as a pitcher and disrupt what the batter's timing.many times i would shake off pitches just to shake them off and make the hitter stand there for some time or pitch quickly before he really got set.my goal was to get the hitters concentratio to go from 100% on hitting to 95% on hitting and 5% on cussing me, if i could do that i was way ahead, it's an art lost today. i and my catcher knew how my stuff was and how to use it and when to throw what. we learned through doing it and talking about the job we had and experience.me and my catcher can see how and where the itter is in the box, the coach in the dugout cannot. we learned to put some on or take some off, things that just can't happen now.we learned that if we threw 6 straight ball with a fastball why not try another pitch? maybe i can get the curve over better what's the worst that can happen?.today's pitchers are not really ptichers but robots. they get on the mound and throw the pitch the coach calls and have no idea what they're doing or why they're doing it and neither imo do most coaches.the coaches at the high school i follow played in the infiled and outfield and did not pitch yet they somehow feel compelled and qualified to call pitches for all their guys. they don't watch them warm up, they can't know what's working for a guy or what the pitcher has used against the batter in past meetings but their egos can't stand for their pitchers and catchers to call their own game.i hear them and fans yell" be a smart pitcher" constantly but what can that mean? if they throw what the coach says when the coach says to, how can there be any pitching involved in it at all?i talk with scouts all the time and they really feel like the game is being lost on young catchers and pichers by not learning to mentally deal their own hand. i know some of you will say that the players will learn from the coach but i don't believe that i believe they just become like a dog who knows where his food bowl is and looks for his master to fill it for him.coaches let your boys learn their own lessons and call their own games, who's to say they won't do a much better job than you do.

 

For the most part, I'm on the same page. But college coaches are just as guilty of this. A good catcher can get on the same page with a pitcher. The coaches can have a gameplan based on their scouting, but the batterymates know what's working, who's crowding, what the umpire is seeing, what the umpire is missing. So many variables when considering what pitch to throw.
It's a chess match and not too many chess players get instructions while they are playing.

 

BINGO

Oh my gosh. I'm not crazy. That is hitting the nail on the head. You are right when you say that the coaches egos won't let them have anyone else calling pitches. We had a kid on our HS team that caught for 4 years of varsity but was never allowed to call pitches. And you better not shake off a pitch if you were pitching. Then he would visit the mound and give the kid a good talking to. He would say things like "don't you question my coaching ability" and "no I don't think the other team has caught on that I always call a fastball on the outside corner when we get 2 strikes", even if they just hit 10 in-a-row the other way with 2 strikes on them.

I am so glad we made it out of High School baseball. I don't expect a high school coach to know everything about baseball. But it would be fine if the coach looked to learn more.

I don't want to upset the coaches on this board and I know that all coaches are not like that.

 

OSU comes to mind

TM,

Your comments remind me back to this yr's CWS but from an offensive standpoint on controlling the tempo of the game. UNC (especially the ace relief pitcher) complained about the Oreg State team's batters doing things to slow the pace of the game, like taking extra time out of the batters box, pausing, different little "things" that may disrupt a pitcher's normal routine.

Anyway, it seemed like legitimate strategy to me in trying to get whatever edge possible on an outstanding pitching staff including the closer, especially with a pitcher that likes to work fast, as many closers do.
And OSU's stategy seemed to work out best for them in the end.

A side note, I read somewhere that OSU's catcher(s) do call their pitches.

 

Yes..they did. But again, the point that upset the UNC pitcher was a holdover from the day before when the ump refused "timeout" calls by the UNC hitters while the OSU pitcher was freezing them...and when it was his turn to pitch the ump allowed the hitters to disrupt the pitchers rhythm. I would have been upset, too.

 

Catchers Calling Pitches

I spent my entire career Catching (HS, College and Minor Leagues). I never (ever) had anyone call pitches for me. I learned how at a very early age. There's no substitute for being positioned directly under the hitter! I have a young rising 7th grader I'm teaching to Catch. He's called most of his own games for the past few years now. He learns fast.

 

So that explains it....

I'll tell you what, not many coaches or managers are going to argue with aguyyouknow. If you saw him you would say..."yessir"

 

TM

As a coach I totally agree with you. We let our catcher & pitcher call his own game. We have our catchers look in the dugout after every pitch. We do this because we sometimes will give suggestions on pitches but the call is totally up to the pitcher. There is never anything said if a pitcher shakes us off. As every coach, we sometimes will signal a pitchout or pick but that is it besides the suggestions. We go over our scouting report with the catcher and pitcher before the game. We then go over some thing with our defense on certain players and positioning.
When I go to high school games I hardly ever see HS catchers/pitchers call there own game. Which makes it harder in college to let our guys do it themselves. We practice this during intersquads and etc. to try and give them a feel for it. I totally agree with you! I wished more kids growing up would be able to call their own game.

 

There is a very good thread that I brought back up called "Ask Applejack"
AJ was a ML player for the Dodgers, Tigers and Reds. I asked him this question several years ago to get his feedback. It was interesting.

 

Devil's Advocate

Totally agree!! In most cases, it comes down to ego and control. I would rather a pitcher and catcher have total confidence in what they choose to throw instead of giving them an excuse to fail or give them someone to point a finger at if their pitch doesn't work. Coaches can affect a game through their pitcher without calling every pitch with no rights to shake off. It seems like it starts at the youngest ages, we are taking too much of the thinking out of the players' hands. By the time they get to high school they are either too clueless or too afraid to make their own call. Not a good thing since baseball is definitely a thinking game.

However, just to play devil's advocate for those coaches who tell their players when to spit and scratch, I will give you the line they all use.... "If I am going to be held responsible for wins and loses then I'm going to make the decisions on what to throw!!" It is tough to persuade some head coaches they should leave the fate of the game (especially a big game) in the hands of a teenager. How many times on this board have we seen someone question pitch selection and it is usually the head coach who is being questioned.

Baseball247 has the compromise but there are still a lot of coaches who feel that is leaving too much to chance. That is a shame for game.