Pitchers Throwing Too Many Innings

This is a subject that seems should be ruled by common sense but every year it creates major problems between high school coaches and pitchers/parents or high school coaches and college coaches.

Let me preface this by saying I do not have an axe to grind. I do not have a son who was or is being pitched to death, and I will try to include as few particulars as possible. This is for general discussion purposes only.

(How many pitches/innings should a high school pitcher throw?) is too broad of a question. This is a more narrow question dealing mainly with senior pitchers who have already signed with a college and/or are expecting to go relatively high in the draft.

I have noticed that there are several pitchers in NC who have signed with major D-1 schools and are throwing a lot of innings and some who have half a dozen, or more, complete games so far this season. Every pitcher and situation is different but I am wondering if some of these pitchers, who are the obvious studs of their high school teams and who have a promising future in front of them should be throwing as much as some of them are after the fact they have already signed and established themselves as a prospect. One could take it a step further and wonder if any high school pitcher whose goal is to pitch at the next level should throw as much as many are throwing.

Scouts scout mechanics & potential, and both pro scouts and college coaches weigh projectability heavily when recruiting... so is a (choose your #)-inning high school senior season facing mostly underclassmen worth the increased risk of a serious injury?(one that may not show up immediately) And I know of examples of seniors with aims of pitching in college the next year throwing 10 or 12 complete games with a few other shorter appearances thrown in. At least one of these are now out of baseball due to arm problems.

I also wonder how much input some of their college coaches have as to how much they pitch. I know of a couple situations where a college coach has "requested" to a high school coach that their recent signee be placed on a pitch count and restricted innings per week. I also know of a situation where pro scouts have made similar requests to a high school coach most everyone in the state knows by name. And interestingly, that pitcher's innings are about half of that of many other prospect pitchers this year.

I'm not indicting any pitchers or coaches because it is ultimately up to each family and I am not interested in specific cases other than players that I personally care about and am involved with. I'm just curious if anyone else shares this concern or maybe simply disagrees with my whole premise. I definitely do not agree that pitchers should sign and hide. They have to be out there competing and continually improving their skills just like every player on the team. College coaches or scouts would ask for nothing less. And I know that high school players who think they should dictate all decisions related to them are total jokes and don't deserve to cross the line. I certainly hope there will never be a place in high school baseball for some of the circus events occuring in high school basketball with the players and parents running every aspect of the show.

I know that most high school coaches are reputable and would do nothing to hurt their pitchers' future but I also know of some who, when it comes down to win or lose in a big game, they would consider doing about anything.

In a recent BA, they had a couple of articles about the pitch count debate in the pros. It was a different subject but they included the pitch limits that pro teams place on their pitchers at each level(Rookie, A, AA, AAA). Most teams limited high school signees to 75-90 pitches per game which, if a starter, would occur about once every 5 days or so. I realize these teams have a lot of money invested in that arm and they have to be extra careful but when dealing with a pitcher's future I wonder if parents and high school coaches should make armcare at least as much of a priority as the pros do.

Fresh arms are a rare commodity in college and pros and the minor leagues are absolutely full of players who hardly ever pitched in high school and because of that fact have been converted into a pitcher after they were drafted. Pitchers are so very valuable beyond high school that I would really hate to see a player lose his chance in high school as a result of throwing too much. I would be interested to hear some other points of view on this.

 

It's an interesting topic .... but innings by themselves are meaningless. If you can throw a complete game and only throw 75-80 pitches, fine. A lot of these complete games have relatively low pitch counts.

Most of the HS coaches I have talked to have pitch counts in mind, particularly early in the season. They restrict pitchers to about 75/game until the weather heats up and it climbs to about 90/game. Since most HS pitchers pitch only once per week, this quantity should be no problem.

In Charlotte, for example, we are in week #11 of the season. If a pitcher gets a decision (win or loss) in 80% of his starts he should have about 8-10 decisions by now. The #1 pitchers (who by default get the most starts) in the Clt-Meck area that I know about in decisions are:

Robert Woodard, 7-3
Andrew Cruse, 6-3
TJ Worrell, 7-1
Tom Porter, 6-2

The pattern that is revealed is that these guys are staying out there long enough to get a decision and pitching only once per week. I don't see a problem in our area. Two of these guys are signed seniors and I don't see them being babied or abused.

 

Caroliner .... here is the opposite side of the coin to consider.

We all (pretty much) agree that we don't want the guys over-throwing .... but many of the pitchers I talk too complain that they are "too strong" if they get too many days between starts. They have trouble with their control and end up throwing more pitches per inning than when they come in with less rest.

I am also of the opinion that it's the "big, long" inning that causes most of the arm trouble. The 30-35 pitch inning that happens occasionally to just about everyone. You get tired, can't rest and your mechanics start suffering, which leads to injury. A 12-15 pitch inning isn't much stress on any of these guys.

Is the answer then to throw more frequently, stay sharper and have less pitches per inning???? One thing is for sure... don't use MLB as a guide. Their track record for developing and protecting arms is shaky at best, particularly over the last 15 years. The cookie cutter approach to drafting every pitcher at 6'4" - 6'9", all throwing 94-96 and most of them are breaking down early.

Probably the best example of this is Mike Marshall. He holds the record for the most appearances in a single season (106 out of 162 games) and the most consecutive days pitched in a row (13). He never had an arm problem. He definitely didn't pitch too little. He also threw a screwball which is suposed to be murder on the arm.

Is the logic backwards? Are the pitchers throwing too little and getting too much rest?

The key is this: Every guy is a little different and has to be handled a little differently.

 

Good points!! I think we agree more than not. There are many examples of young promising pitchers in the pros who were either rushed through the system or used up before they got through the system but "Pitch Counts" as an organizational policy is relatively new to most of the teams (or as BA put it, Pitch Count is a small but growing cult in the majors) and I believe it is a result of so many injuries not a reason for it.

I agree 100% that the cookie cutter approach, whether it's scouting body types for pitchers or teaching someone how to hit, is a shot in the dark way to do things. I won't defend any of that at all. I agree with you.


Here's a specific question for you NCBballFan relative to why I posted this to begin with:

I currently hold to the theory that a pitcher has a certain amount of life and energy in his arm over the period of a baseball season which, for our purposes, will include high school, summer and fall seasons. If your son were a high school senior and had just signed with East Carolina as a pitcher. Would you see any benefit in a self-imposed limit on his pitches in the interest of him being fresh for the fall? I think that is my question more than anything. Most pitchers will make it fine through their high school season but many begin having minor or major arm problems late summer or during the fall. Most don't relate those problems back to high school and many of the problems may in fact be totally unrelated to high school but, and this isn't a general statement because it sounds like this doesn't apply to pitchers in your area, but I seriously wonder if some high school pitchers eventually lose their best stuff late in the summer and during the fall because of their relative overuse in the spring. Just a theory.

 

Great topic:

Got an example for you. Steve Streater, Sylva-Webster (Now Smoky Mountain HS) from 1977.

Record: 23-1 (That's his record, not the teams).
Innings: 165
Shutouts: 12
Strikeouts: 228

Career:
Wins: 61
Strikeouts: 555

This was back in the days before inning limits (which are in place now) and if you were a pitcher, you pitched. Streater went on to college as a football player.

Back to your question now, and this is just an opinion.

The better condition your arm is in, the longer you can throw. I like to think of pitching like weight lifting, particularly when you look at innings, and pitches per innings. Most weight lifters do best if you are lifting regularly (like every other day). This keeps the muscles in top shape. You can't lift once a week and maintain your max.

So you get used to a lifting routine... like doing 3 sets of 15 at 175 lbs....... A day comes along and you decide to do 40 instead of 15 in that middle set. You're going to start breaking down, get tired, your form is going to suffer and you will be prone to injury. You may decide instead of doing the normal 3 sets, your are going to do 7 sets. Same thing. You get tired, form breaks down, prone to injury.

 

I read your theory about pitching to many innings and was just wondering what grounds you have to make such a theory. I was wondering what level of baseball you played and if you had done any pitching when you played? I know there have been different people talking about pitch counts and everything else that goes along with pitching. Could you give me some feed back on what levels you have played at so I will know if your theory holds any weight.

 

caroliner i commend you..............that was the longest post ive ever read, nice!

 

Is there a limit on innings pitched in legion ball?

Seems like i heard something like 12 in 72 hrs a while back, im not

sure.

 

Yes, there are limits in Legion Baseball. It is 12 innings in 72 hours or 4 appearances in 72 hours (that comes more into play in double headers).

In the Caldwell/Shleby series that concluded last night, Shelby had a pitcher pitch 6 innings 3 nights ago, 1 inning the night after in relief. The real shocker, he started last night's game. He went his limit also (the five innings he had left).

Honestly, it was not a good move in hindsight, because he took the loss last night, and may have taken the loss the night before in his one inning stint.

Again I am not sure that innings pitched is a good safe guard. But would coaches really count pitches if it was a safeguard?

 

sportscre8love,
My background as a pitcher is limited. I was a catcher and currently a coach but have never coached above the high school level so there are millions with more credentials on this subject than me but I believe it's too important of a topic for everyone, especially parents, to simply leave up to someone else, including some coaches. What is your opinion of the subject?

There was a show on ESPN's Outside The Lines on which Leo Mazzone, Tom House and another guy not in baseball were interviewed on this topic. I consider Mazzone and House two of the foremost experts on pitching, one more at the pro level and the other more at the youth and instructional level. It was a very insightful show. Mazzone is old school and held many of the opinions that NCBballFan seems to hold while House is more of a progressive and is more up on all the current research and theories. The interesting part was in the end, they both basically agreed that pitch counts and worrying about pitcher's arms would be much less an issue if coaches at the youth and high school levels, which there are many more than ever, would do their job and use common sense in monitoring their pitchers' loads.
I originally started this thread in regard to high school pitchers. They both agreed that any coach who would ask a high school pitcher or youth pitcher to go out and throw 130+ pitches is an idiot. Mazzone said that is the very reason so many people are now talking about pitch counts.
Another important point they both agreed on was that it isn't necessarily the number of innings or number of pitches thrown. It is a combination of things including long innings on the mound or in the dugout.

Basically, it's all common sense. Unfortunately common sense is relative.