(TBR Classic) olefty...gotta recruiting question for you

outside of talent what else are you looking for when recruiting a player?

 

I think every coach would describe it a different way but it's a certain way a kid carries himself. On the field, or maybe not. Maybe it's the first time he sits in your office and he looks you in the eye and says yes sir. Sometimes the opposite happens and a kid looks very bored and disinterested.

I want to imagine that me and this kid can go through hard times and good and still respect each other and work hard for personal and team improvements. Another red light is when the kid comes to visit and the parent seem to dominate the conversation and the recruit is mentally somewhere else.

Here are a few things that most people think make a recruiter turn his head but really doesn't-

It's very hard to recruit a kid because he is "tough or gritty", or "hard nose" These are characteristics that are subjective and relative to the level of competition. Most college players you would describe this way were all-state performers in HS. So they were always the best players and now at the college level thay have found a way to stay in the line up.

The second problem we run into is the "Leader" or "great teammate" this kid has always been a starter and on many occasions been the best player. It happens every year that one of these kids goes to a college program and sees very little time as a freshman. That's when you really find out a kids character and how much he puts the team ahead of himself. half of these kids transfer, become team cancers, or quit baseball altogether.

When you take the talent and baseball skills out of the equation everything becomes a little hard to explain. I think I have spent more time talking about what we don't recruit.

I will recruit any pitcher who has a knack for throwing three pitches for strikes. Like many coaches, velocity may make the dollar figure go up or down. I think a pitcher who has a huge strike out to innings ratio in high school may translate to someone who is effective at some level in college.

this past season I recruited and signed a player who gave up a big first inning homerun in a hs playoff game and I swear he had a smirk on his face. for the next 6innings he had 14 k's and i knew he will be able to handle the adversity that hits every college baseball player in the face.

This is just my personal preference that I have developed from my past experience, but the better the program the more infielders can play shortstop. Many coaches put their best SS there and then the other two SS become the 3b and 2b. we aren't there yet, but working on it. So maybe make sure you son looks competent fielding ground ball at short.

Another question that many parents may want answered is why a certain player who seems about the same as another ends up being recruited by big name schools, while the other may have trouble getting noticed by mid level schools. The answer is speed, pure and simple.

Addison Johnson is not at Clemson because he is the best hitter in NC. He is there because he can outrun almost every other baseball player in America. Ask yourself this- why do they have 60's at the beginning of a tryout or showcase? So coaches can immediately categorize every players level and zone in on the ones he will recruit.

There are very few players in the ACC who run higher than a 7.0 60 time. There are very few scholarship players at the Div II level who run the 60 higher than a 7.2

Here's a controversial statement....

If we took all the football players in Mecklenburg county and put them on a baseball field, the first year even without "baseball Skills" there would be more players drafted by MLB org's and/or recruited by major division 1's than ever in the history of Mecklenburg county.

that's about it for now,

 

Baseball players please

Your last comment is one reason that UNC got hammered last Saturday. They look great in their uniform on defense. They all fit the D-1 profile dont they? 6-5 290 lbs up front. All of them. They have done a great job of recruiting athletes and guys that fit the profile they are looking for at the D-1 level. Maybe they should spend more time finding FOOTBALL players. Some might not be quite as fast in the shuttle run. Some might be 6-1 and not 6-5. Funny thing is a FOOTBALL player will beat down a physical specimen all day long. Just like last Saturday on the line of scrimmage at Kenan. My point is baseball is no different in that respect. You take those football players from Meck county and you try and turn them into baseball players. Ill take the baseball players from Meck county and we might not be as athletic. We might not have the great 60 time. But the funny thing is we will be able to hit throw pitch and catch. And in the end thats what wins. Ball players win. Not athletes. Of course athletic players that can also play thats what your looking for. But many a school has missed out on a ball player because they had a certain profile they were looking for and forgot the most important profile - CAN THE BOY PLAY THE GAME?

 

coach 27,

what I will agree with you on is the fact that a good baseball player will win. if you look at our recruiting patterns you will see many more solid baseball players than "athlete projects"

I will also agree with you that there are some great ball players who are getting overlooked because of the athletic requirements needed to compete at the top level.

you used UNC as your example. I'll use FSU. There is no other program that I know of that recruits speed and size to the extent that the seminoles do. At every position on the field they recruit the fastest, biggest athlete. and then through the course of practice they determine who is the best out of that amazingly athletic group.

There are alot of reasons the tarheels lost that football game besides their athleticism, but the only reason FSU beat miami the other night is they absolutely dominated them with speed and size. which is pretty hard to do to miami since that is their way of recruiting also.

also, if you give a superior athlete three years of minor league experience he will run circles around your "ball player" That's the way it works and has steadily been going this way since the mid 80's when the cardinals reinvented the speed game.

the big picture of pro baseball is no one cares how many loses it takes to make a superstar. but you can't make an average athlete into a superstar athlete.

I am only a messenger here. Just remember even Brooks Robinson is quoted all the time as saying in today's baseball world he would have never been drafted much less had the oppritunity to become the hall of famer he was.

 

AMEN, BROTHER AMEN !!!!!! That's exactly why a cinderella team pops up and wins the Big One. That's how most coaches arrive at the Div 1 school by starting at the smaller school and getting THE ballplayers and not just athletes. Look at college basketball, best athletes on earth but they are losing ground on how to play the game, just jump slam and run and you are a basketball player by todays standards. NO GOLD. Baseball will be there soon enough, forget the bunt, the arm from the outfield, just wail at the ball and become a papi or howard and make it to the BIGS. Yankees with no one hurt (damon,matsui,sheffield) could not throw out a runner if needed, but they can hit. Pitching will not change but GOOD PITCHERS are often overlooked if the velocity is not there. Enough ranting keep up the good work and as always this site is one of the best and informtative for the avid amateur baseball fan!

BRAVES you are one of the best but your looks (enough said) and I don't even know who you are.

 

Bo knows

yeah, take Bo Jackson for example. just a fantastic "athlete". in baseball & football; had he not had the injuries, would have probably been a hall of famer in both sports.

 

Athlete vs BallPlayer

You make great point Lefty Im not trying to pick a fight with you. But here I believe is the difference between football and baseball. While coaching HS football I could take an athletic kid that wanted to play that had never played football before and do this with him. Put him on the field show him a gap and say "Go get the guy with the ball". If he was a great athlete he could make an immediate impact on the football field. If I took that same kid and put him on a baseball field he would probaly get hurt and definitely embarrassed. Baseball skills such as arm strength , the ability to hit the ability to catch are not skills that an athlete can just pick up. They are skills that take time to aquire and some never do. I dont care how athletic you are if you cant hit you cant hit. I dont care how athletic you are it has nothing to do with how hard you throw. My point is you can go to the football coach and get all his best athletes and work with them all you want. If they dont have the ability to hit throw and catch what difference does it make. The programs that get the ballplayers will outperform the programs that take athletes and then hope they can turn them into ballplayers. My 5'10 7.4 60 pitcher that knows how to pitch will make those athletes look stupid at the dish. And the bottom line is winning. Who wins? The programs with all the athletic kids that are projects in the waiting hoping that they develop or the programs that have the ball players? As far as ML dont they have to have some baseball skills to go along with that athletic ability? If not why are not all the bigtime basketball and football players that dont make it in their sport drafted every year instead of the baseball players? As far as Bo Jackson he had baseball skills unlike Jordan. He was a ball player with outstanding athletic ability. How athletic is Adam Dunn, Ortiz the Molina brothers etc etc etc. Baseball is an unique sport. A kid with minimal athletic ability can dominate a game from the hill and at the dish. All he has to have is baseball skills. The ability to throw the rock and the ability to hit that rock. That is why in my opinion ball players will always be the ones winning and athletes without baseball skills will always be projects that someone is hoping they will develop. One thing is for sure when Eric Cagne was dominating everyone from the hill for LA I never heard anyone talk about how athletic he was. But did anyone care? Sorry for the long post but I have seen too many kids that athletically didnt jump out at you. The only thing they did was eat sleep and live the game. Oh and beat your butt on the field. And I have seen the athlete that was so impressive looking but couldnt hold their jock. Good luck to the ML teams that try to make a living with projects while the other ones take the ball players.

 

Surprised Michael Jordan's name didn't come up

I see some good points being made on both sides of this discussion and agree that the upside to a great athlete is obvious and tempting. But some skills can't be taught, they are acquired through the years of playing the game.

Heck, look at Michael Jordan, Athlete (YES), Competitor (YES) - Baseball player NO.

Athleticism is no quarantee of Baseball success, but teams will continue to take chances on athletes with that inherent upside.

I really enjoyed reading the book "Money Ball" a few years back and Coach 27 makes a point about the kid who is a producer.

Good discussion Guys, does anybody remember back when Kansas City had it's Baseball Academy for developing young players?

 

yes

yes, I recall the KC academy. I had a HS teammate to be drafted by KC & go to academy. He said it was baseball 24 / 7. He did not last very long.

 

The academy was invented and ran by Syd Thrift. Probably most famous for building the pirates up in the late 80's and early 90's. The killer B's....
The baseball academy's most esteemed alumni is Frank White
Thrift's books and their ideas are the foundation for scouting today and the reason athletes are given the chances over solid ball players.

Let me remind all that I certainly wish it was as easy as seeing a kid go 3-3 and make a couple of nice plays. Scouting and recruiting would be simple. But when I am watching a kid do it against a pitcher who is 79-81, I can't for a second think he would do that against a pitcher 86-89.
Then I see him bobble a ball at third and still have the time to gather himself and throw the guy out. In a college game where your average runner is 4.4 seconds to first base, that's error #1.

I believe with all my heart that "ball players" should get drafted and offered scholarships, but how can a scout or recruiter explain to his scouting director/head coach how good a "ball player" he is??

One last thing that will drive alot of people crazy but it's still true. 99% of the time when coaches are at a showcase or some type of tournament meant to expose kids, they are actually marking kids off their list instead of putting new names on the list.

For instance, saturday they have the pro workout (60's, OF throws, INf grounders, BP, etc) Coaches mark off every outfielder and middle infielder who runs less than a 7.5. That number is different depending on the level. So 140 kids is down to 90 in twenty minutes. For a major division 1 this number is 6.7-6.9. SO maybe every kid there but 1 is automatically off the list.

every 3rd baseman and shortstop who can't get it to first without an arc on the throw is marked off the list, or the coach waits to see if they can hit and marks them down as an OF, 1B, 2B. If they don't show good hitting they are off the list. So that 90 is now 65-70 kids.

If a catcher's time to second is above a 2.15 (remember that number is different for every level) he is off the list. now we are at 60 kids. A major D I would be around a 1.9 or less. If he can hit might let him get away with a legit 2.0, everey catcher there is off their list.

Ten more kids are marked off the list for having bad bodies. If you come to college out of shape a) you can't make it through our workouts b)pizza and beer are gonna make you even worse after two years. So now we are down to around 45 kids.

Then during BP another 15-20 kids are marke doff the list because a coach would rather not fix his swing. Let him go to a lower level school where he can get away with his bad habits and still be successful. And another 5 kids are marked off because he threw a bat, or looked soft after booting a ball or mom brought him a gatorade right in the middle of the workout.

So by Saturday when the actual games start I am only looking at about 25 kids. As soon as one of these kids looks over matched by a fairly solid pitcher he's off the list. By Sunday I will have between 0-10 kids I will be contacting that week.

It's the truth. DOn't believe me ask any coach who is honest. They are out there every weekend just like me, marking kids off so we can figure out who to contact.